Blog Update

Okay, first things first. To those who may have read at the Last Refuge that daily George Zimmerman open threads will be posted here let me inform you that will not take place. I’m unsure why Sundance advertised otherwise as there’s never been discussion or comment to that effect. No hard feelings mind you towards Sundance and I’m sure he’ll correct that position once he’s able. Also as you may see from my history of blogging since July 2012 I don’t post very often, I am also a one man operation here so I wouldn’t expect too much in the way of responsiveness or daily threads of any sort.

Even though the George Zimmerman case and its larger aspects have been the primary focus in that time on my blog, I will be blogging about other subjects and eventually be moving away from the case all together, as it should be of course since there will be resolution to the case itself one day.

I have updated my About page a bit for now and will expound on it at a later date so please take a gander at that as well.

For my previous followers I’m sure you have noticed the blog aesthetics and arrangement has changed, there’s been no major change however, I just simply chose another layout that was available from the free WordPress options, added a few things and moved things around a bit.

Just one last thing for now. As far as moderation goes, quite simply I am very open as to what I allow. Unless there’s threats, harassment or spamming I rarely get involved unless asked and even then it depends on the situation as to whether or not I’ll do anything about it.

Good enough for now. Cheers and Welcome!

511 thoughts on “Blog Update

  1. I’d be OK with you simply not allowing comments for the ZImmerman case threads. We can all converse elsewhere and provide links to your threads. The information you provide here is fantastic!

  2. I read all your stuff anyway and comment when I have a question or notice something, which I noticed something earlier , but will ask in another thread. Love what you do and please keep it up.

  3. yes, i think it is a good idea to allow comments and to get a deeper understanding of the issues presented in this case. Having been banned from the CT website (not that i couldn’t get on if i wanted to), it seems to me that anyone who disagrees with SD gets kicked off. Also, it is noted that many intelligent people have left that website, either by being banned or by choosing to no longer post.

    SD seems to be on a mission to disparage and get rid of MOM. Frankly, his ideas make no sense at all, but he wouldn’t know that since anyone who dares to question his logic is banned (and not in a nice way either).

    I am very happy to see the intelligent discussion yesterday, instead of all the blather at the CT, where the reverend preaches to the choir. And the inanities of those who do follow are ridiculous to wade through. I hope that this blog can lead to intelligent discussions about the case and yes, maybe even differing opinions at times. There is nothing like the marketplace of ideas to put ridiculous notions to a quick and early death. Refusing to accept any contrary viewpoints is akin to keeping one’s head in the proverbial sand.

    At this point, it makes absolutely no sense to attack MOM, for example. It is not productive, period. And anyone who thinks that MOM is not doing the best that he can, has not really understood this case.

    • It is grossly unfair, imo. I got involved with this case b/c I saw GZ get railroaded and then his wife, Shellie get railroaded. She did not lie in court on April 20th. When I told people on the Huffington Post to let her have her day in court, I got inundated with negative responses on how stupid can I possibly be, of course she lied. S.H.E. D.I.D. N.O.T. L.I.E. – Yet the press took BDLR’s incorrect transcription of her call with her husband and they ran with it.

      Now, I see the same railroading of Mr. O’Mara, is being done with regards to accusations of lying and railroading his own client. Again, with suspicion and not a full vetting of the facts, Mr. O’Mara has been publicly accused, within 100 days of a trial, of working against his client. This, in effect, negatively impacts those donating to help this effort as people aren’t sure what to do. Some have insinuated the Zimmerman family are too nice to say anything or they are being coerced to stay with Mr. O’Mara due to some bond agreement. No proof of such has been provided. So therefore, must be ignored. Presumption of Innocence applies to lawyers too.

      With all due respect, in the world, to GZ, he is not the best guy at describing things. He told Det. Singleton that Trayvon circled his car and he told dispatch that. When you listen to the NEN call, we learn no he didn’t BUT, it is quite possible that did in fact occur. You can hear a part of the tape where GZ does describe TM getting so close to the car and he gets anxious and asks for the cops to get over there. So it could have happened, but that is not what GZ described to Sean was going on.

      Then you take GZ describing to Sean Hannity on the July 18th interview why TM wasn’t scared when he ran. “How do you know that George?” Paraphrasing, “cause, he didn’t really run he sort of skipped away.” I can’t imagine a 17 year old skipping but I do get what GZ was trying to describe, that TM wasn’t running out of fear. So George isn’t the best at describing things literally.

      First, review how Mr. O’Mara became GZ’s lawyer. It wasn’t one friend, Mark Nejame, who referred him. Multiple people did. Listen to Mr. O’Mara’s first press conference given on April 11th, the day George was arrested to refresh how they teamed up.

      Now let’s examine the $37K thousand he told his brother-in-law, Ken/Scott, he told Mr. O’Mara about. Please recall, there were three (3) pay pal accounts in existence. So in describing the $37 dollar one to his BIL, George is signalling what account he’s talking about; the donation account he (George) set-up on April 8th. How did George describe that account to Mr. O’Mara? We have NO WAY of knowing. Until this is over, GZ can’t talk to us. We have Mr. O’Mara’s remarks about it, when reporters grilled him about it. Mr. O’Mara flat-out denied that George said an amount to him. If his client had said $37K, he’d have remembered that, he said.

      Let me give you a likely scenario as well. George gets arrested knowing that so far $37K has come in in donations. He tells MOM, I’ve set-up this website and people are donating. I’ve got my brother-in-law Scott taking care of transferring to my bank account. We tried to transfer the amount, but it got rejected. MOM who by all accounts confused two other pay-pal accounts that George’s Friend set-up and knows there is a bit of money in each, explains to George your defense is going to cost close to a half million dollars. The donations are nice and all but it’s not going to be enough for you to cover. You are indigent and we’ll likely file to get help from the State to cover costs. On April 12th, Mr. O’Mara drafts up the a notice for bond motion and files it with the court on April 16th. He planned on motioning for indigent status, but that never happened. They disclosed that $204K in donations had come in before the indigent hearing, scheduled for April 27th. So they didn’t falsely file for indigent status as some claim.

      BTW, it was April 12th that about $75K in donations came in. They couldn’t have known about that as they discussed it on April 12th.

      Then in a phone call to Scott, GZ says, I told Mr. O’Mara about the $37 and he said it’s not going to help, I’m still indigent. —– Now in that scenario, did Mom break the law? GZ and Scott go on to say it’s best to keep Mr. O’Mara in the dark until the can be sure they trust him. But so far, they are feeling good about him.

      After GZ got bail, Mr. O’Mara did an interview with Anderson Cooper, and Anderson asks him about the pay pal account (as everyone called it back then) . Mr. O’Mara doesn’t think of GZ’s donation account, he immediately relates to the 2 accounts his friend set-up and answers according. The interview is here:

      When GZ bonds out a few days later and works with Mr. O’Mara to shut-down his internet presence, he asks what to do about the money. “What money?” The $204K that I’ve gotten in donations! To Mr. O’Mara’s credit, he went right back to the source where he gave the impression, there wasn’t a whole lot of money coming in, Anderson Cooper, and set the record straight. Even before he told the Judge!

      And on April 27th, they told the court. Without threat of being found out.

      The whole situation was very fluid and developed over a few days. Until and unless, we have proof otherwise, benefit of the doubt should be given. It crosses the line, with what we know, to accuse, imo.

      May we all work to ensure that no family goes through what has been done to the Zimmerman family.

      Thanks for letting me express an opinion on the matter.

      • “Again, with suspicion and not a full vetting of the facts, Mr. O’Mara has been publicly accused, within 100 days of a trial, of working against his client. ”

        Hi Nettels!

        I agree with you on that. Even if MOM did those things, shouldn’t there be facts and shouldn’t he be afforded presumption of innocence like anyone else?

        I think the CTH has done a tremendous amount of work regarding the GZ case but its been my feeling that if you don’t say something that is not in consensus with the “chosen ones” over there, (not all of them) you are either banned, accused of being a prog, or just ignored. I find this amusing for a site whose motto is that “Truth has no agenda.”

        Once again, not taking anything from the work CTH has done, but just expressing how I feel.

        D-Man seems to be more laid-back so I think this site will be too.

        Good job D-Man on the site.

        • Well said, Angel. We don’t all have to agree, just as everyone on a jury does not always agree. I enjoy well thought out opinions but to carve one person’s opinion in stone certainly goes against the grain of my own belief that “Truth has no agenda”. To take it a step farther, maybe it should be “The SEARCH for truth has no agenda.” Good to see you here!

          • “The SEARCH for truth has no agenda.” Good to see you here!”

            Thank you Selfdefenseadvocate! Good to see you here too 🙂

      • amen to that nettles. that is exactly the type of intelligent discussion to which i am referring. nice to see you again!

      • Yes, the entire argument for accusing MOM hinges on what gz told his friend scott that MOM said. Since gz was not completely forthcoming with MOM at that point, we can hardly accuse MOM, since he did not know all the facts. Also, CTH is relying on hearsay as to what MOM said. In addition, that would be protected by a/c privilege unless gz waived it, and it certainly does not seem like he did or will.

        It is of course telling that once MOM found out all the facts, he IMMEDIATELY took every step necessary to correct the misimpression, both with the media and with the court.

        Regarding Shellie, IIRC, she simply stated that she did not know how much was in the account. That was probably true. Interesting that W8 probably won’t be charged with perjury, all though she well should be if the state was being fair. IMO, the state thought this case was going to be easy. They overcharged 2nd degree murder, hoping GZ would plead to manslaughter. That didn’t happen. Next, they charged Shellie with perjury in the hope that GZ would plead in order to spare his wife. That also didn’t happen. The state has overplayed its hand at each stage and it is going to be very satisfying once gz is acquitted. (BTW, I believe the move to go directly to trial is brilliant.)

        Thus, the whole exercise of accusing MOM is completely unproductive at this point and NOT supportive of gz at all. Yet I do believe that there is a conspiracy to railroad gz, orchestrated by Crump, the MSM and including Corey all the way up to Scott, and maybe even further within the federal government. I do hope indeed that CTH can shed light on those issues and I fully support their efforts to do so. Hopefully, they won’t get bogged down on pointless paranoid meanderings and will be able to differentiate clearly the forest from the trees.

        • At first, I didn’t like the idea of going directly to trial. When does the laws of Florida get applied to George Michael Zimmerman? SYG was suppose to help those who by a preponderance of the evidence, likely acted in self-defense to avoid trial and not become bankrupt in defending against the charge.

          I have evolved to also believe it was a great idea. The defense has taken a huge weight off this judge, with that decision. I’m hopeful she becomes more friendlier to ensuring GZ is given every opportunity to put on a defense. Heck, she may even give more time if they can show it’s needed.

          She is also the judge in the NBC suit and now that she is in civil court, she would be a candidate for any civil claims brought against GZ.

          Given the constraints that the defense found themselves in, time and money, the way to go is to put pressure on the State to prove their charge and concentrate on countering it. Most, if not all, agree, GZ would not have rec’d immunity with this judge.

          I pray that people continue to donate to GZ’s defense. I cringe to think of him having to apply for indigent status, in light of what went on in April. I don’t want the papers reliving that to the public mere days before the trial. If you think GZ is being railroaded, please, please donate to him to help the team not have to file for indigent status and fight these charges.

          • here is my take on it:

            It seems to me that the defense is making a calculated strategy based upon burdens of proof. The decision is between proving self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not) at a pre-trial hearing versus making the state prove NOT self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. While the preponderance of the evidence standard is the easiest one to meet, the judge has already telegraphed her decision to deny the pre-trial motion (by focusing on jury selection and seating arrangements at the trial.) The judge may change that bias later on though, because she seemed more amenable to defense requests after the W8 fiasco. It may be a good strategy to put the burden on the state, because it is the hardest one to meet. That seems to be why BDLR exclaimed that he was “bewildered.” The state has lots of work to do in order to meet that burden.

            In addition, the strategy also seems useful in that gz will not have to testify at the pre-trial hearing and give away his case. Likewise, prospective jurors will know if he failed to prove self-defense and perhaps be biased by that.

            All in all, it seems that the burden one way or the other is now squarely on the state. Best of luck!

            • Great points! I think this judge was thwarting the defense somewhat in order to help justify why she didn’t grant immunity. Now that she’s off the hook, no reason to thwart them in giving them the time they need to mount a defense.

              • I read “somewhere” that Nelson never intended to give the defense a full two weeks and would only have allowed them two or three days at the most. Sorry but the source is best left unrevealed. Even so, they still have the option if they change their minds.

              • I still find amazing the comments, which on both of your links, still keep repeating the same tired incorrect messages. Told by the POLICE to stay in the car, told by 911, was on patrol, shot in cold blood, detained, etc. I just saddens me that they are so out of touch that when he does get aquitted and hopefully immune from all future actions, there really WILL be blood ion the streets.

                Yet, who is to blame? Obviously the media was the fuel to the fire and was what kept it going. the the tinder fire starters were Juleson and especially Crump and the kindle, JJ, Sharpton and BO, also Bondi and Scott. I believe they should be all held accountable if and when all hell breaks loose afterwards. Any loss of the and property should fall on them.

                But, nothing will happen to the kindle. The tender I hope will get hit hard as well as those who added fuel to the fire.

                • Maybe it’s time for ” blood on the streets.” NOTHING else is working to change the BGI. There are also more of us than them. As my friend Fred on Everything says, “Bring it on.”

        • For the record and no ill will whatsoever intended, you seem to express yourself far differently, logically and more respectfully here than I recall that you did at the CTH.

        • Other than the CTH, at what other sites do you post? I view you differently now but stayed out of your discussions over there as I did with Nettles and others who abruptly left or were banned. I usually take the peaceful route unless I am personally confronted and that did happen there with one other poster.

          • he erased some of my posts too, some that i actually spent a lot of time writing concerning attorney-client privilege.

            all because they contradicted his viewpoint that gz should fire MOM. i told him it was not going to happen, IMO.

            he also erased a post i had written to MOM, saying that not everyone on the site agreed about SD’s view of MOM. it is so nice to have a site that is not censored.

            Yes, sometimes we have to deal with contrary points of view. It is great that Chip takes the time and effort to respond to crazies, but it might be best to just let them burn themselves out. If no one takes seriously their ridiculous comments, perhaps they will tire of posting.

            then again, maybe not?

            • that is one of the most frustrating things about SD. He always thinks that his viewpoint is correct.

              I had disputes about another matter, and he wrongly named someone as being part of Al Qaeda. That particular Libyan was no such thing… it was a different person who was in the reference… but tell SD that and he will refuse to acknowledge your point… and then one gets banned!!

              I know more about what happened to former admin than you think. They are around and really great people to talk with.

              I am opening up my own blog to allow any discussion but there are provisios 🙂 especially since I hold a conservative viewpoint and one that is contrary to those on the left.

              Many of us feel a bit lost because we came together to discuss this particular case.

                    • had to look, but i post anywhere that’s easy. i kind of subscribe to the groucho idea:


                • whose truth?

                  Let me give an example about that “truth”. I followed the Libyan situation very closely. There was one particular report regarding what was taking place that came from what I considered a suspicious source. A little bit of checking actually proved I was right to be suspicious and that Gadhafi was behind that little piece of propaganda. The point is people like SD saw the item of news, did not check it out fully and were oblivious of the original source of information. I had to learn to be very sceptical before I accepted anything, and that included reports from the Christian Science Monitor, even though in some respects the particular reporter was correct, but he was not correct about the people as a whole… which is my point… the minority view is not how the majority thinks!! 🙂

                  I continue to keep an eye open for reports on Libya, I do feel concerned about some of the things happening in Benghazi, but it still looks like that all of the trouble is coming from a minority of individuals, and that minority is tarring the rest with a very bad brush.

                  I am also trying to keep an eye on Egypt. I think that situation is going rapidly downhill. Where Syria is concerned, I think most reports are suspect.

                  • Aussie : Do you have a link to this statement:

                    The point is people like SD saw the item of news, did not check it out fully and were oblivious of the original source of information. ‘

                    I have to ask because I learned more about Benghazi than from anyone else.

                • there were several other admin people who suddenly disappeared. This was before the Zimmerman case. They are my friends and I visit their blogs.

                  They gave me the low down on what had happened after I got booted from the CTH

                  • Interesting. I never knew there others and do not recall anyone leaving. Has anyone left there since March of last year?

                    • They were booted before March last year.

                      I can remember noticing as a few of them suddenly disappeared. It was over things like publishing the data on the number of views… one of the remaining ones was miffed because she did not get to post the information… stuff like that.

                      I actually knew them from even further back but that is a bit of a long story too. It was from prior to the blog being formed.

                    • I once asked about number of visitors, views and members and was severely reprimanded. That question led to me being accused of being a troll and then banned. I still would like to know out of curiosity.

                    • that is weird because one of those people I am not sure if it was Barnslayer or Grunt was banned over the publishing of the statistics.

                      Some people like to know that information. Personally I have not been overly worried about that kind of thing.

                      I have some blogs that have very low views because I do not exactly go about publicizing them.

                      I would never have thought someone was a troll for asking that kind of question. Trolls do other things that makes them stand out…. usually they try to hijack threads, stuff like that….

                • BTW try this link


                  This is an alternative blog of mine which I have out there but have very low readership. It is just me putting down my thoughts. In this post for the link I have mentioned the report that SD relied upon that was in fact Gadhafi propaganda. I found out by doing a bit of checking.

                  Most of the information about the assault on the U.S. Embassy that SD wrote about seems to be correct, but I still take some of it with a grain of salt.

                  To me, there seems to be some missing information. I remain uncertain about some of the stories regarding the whole affair.

                  It does seem that there was a CIA gun running operation in place and I happen to think that the USA has been quite foolish getting involved in this covert way.

                  George Bush Sr. did the same thing. It was called the Iran or was that Iraq contra affair. This kind of thing will always get them into trouble.

                  I remain troubled by the Syrian situation. I am also troubled about some of the recent reports out of Benghazi… but the same group in Benghazi seem to be responsible.

                  Did you know that St. Paul stayed in Benghazi? This was the place where he stopped on the way to Rome. The story is in the Acts of the Apostles about how he appeared before the consul and his wife who were curious about him. I would have to locate my Bible to give you the exact reference 🙂

      • Nettles, I just wanted to say that I have very much enjoyed reading what you have written about the GZ case. Your intellectual discussions have been more than welcome by many, and wherever you have written those posts.

        I too was one who met the ban hammer, certainly not the first, and most certainly not the last by any means. I wonder if anyone knows where Howie and John Galt have gone?

        Whatever one may think or believe with respect to MOM and West, the fact remains that GZ’s trial is coming very fast, and to attack the defense team at this late date only adds to the already hyped false media narrative. It only serves to give more fodder and false credit to those with ulterior motives, the press being only one of those players. It appears that truth has no agenda, until an agenda starts driving a perceived form of truth.

      • Hi Nettles, great to see you, two quick things, there is another thing that you did not mention Judge Lester himself was unsure whether the funds were applicable towards bond or indigence determination.
        Second, I think that SD is being misunderstood, he sees MOM as someone who aids the system that railroaded GZ to begin with. He also feels that vindicating GZ is not enough, because it does not expose the reason it happened. His frustrations with MOM and his handling of the case are due to what he perceives as his lack of interest in fighting against the BGI, corruptible officials, the aiders and abettors that have made this tragedy into what it is.
        I tried to tell SD on several times that GZ and family may not want to go that far. That exoneration of GZ was their goal. That the GZ family may identify with the BGI or at least support some of its goals. I think this is when he decided to stop the Daily thread. To SD is about principle, so let’s give him props for that. This is my opinion.

        • I appreciate the work Sundance and his team did at Treehouse. I donated to the site twice to help their effort. Not for political reasons, I’m a liberal. There are things we agree on and others we do not. I donated to help assist uncovering the lies told in the GZ case.

          I get what you are saying and appreciate you outlining it in this way. In watching Robert Zimmerman Jr. I think he fully intends to pursue this further, but first things first, George has to be taken out from this threat of charges.

          Another lawyer may be needed to deal with the system that makes this perfect storm possible.

          Thanks again for sharing a different perspective. You’ve given me some things to think about.

          • Nettles,
            Thanks for your reply, to me the goal was to exonerate GZ, anything beyond was and is gravy. Reading SD’s last couple of post and some a while back, was what gave me what I think is a better understanding of his position. I never really thought that MOM was comprised by what happened in the matter that SD was describing, but I think the conciliatory tone that MOM has taken lately, really bothered him.
            I think that GZ needs to be free first and then the issues can be addressed, I think the Zimmermans would be great spokespeople to illustrate the problems in “the system that makes this perfect storm possible” to quote you. I really do look forward to your insights in the case, hope to see more of it.

            • I never really thought of that before, but that does shed a lot of light onto why sundance was so opposed to O’Mara.

              And I agree with his principles. I agree that someone needs to expose the BGI. The problem? They’ve been exposed. Time and time again. For decades. A lot of people have compared this case to a more low-rent version of the novel Bonfire Of The Vanities. And that was written, what, almost thirty years ago? Today, you’ve basically got two groups of people in America. Those who already know that people like Sharpton and Crump are hucksters, and those who will never admit that, no matter what kind of evidence is staring them in the face. Race is such a hot-button issue in America that no reporter wants to miss out on the possibility that this case, whichever case happens to be going on right now, might be the real case of racism or discrimination or whatever. And I don’t see how that’s going to change, since most people generally agree with what the BGI says their mission is.

              I don’t see how O’Mara can do anything much about that.

              As far as people like Bondi and Corey, their day will come. The fact is, neither O’Mara nor anyone else can really expose their lies and machinations until after the trial, and all the evidence comes out anyway. They can’t expose how they conspired to railroad an innocent man without proving that George is innocent in the first place. Because if the trial showed that Zimmerman was a murderer, then a lot of people would just think to themselves “Well, OK. They were being dishonest, but they did it for a good cause, since it was the only way to put this guy away.”. Once everyone can see that George wasn’t guilty, then they can start getting into why things got so out of control.

              Sometimes things just have to be done in order, and people have to be patient.

              • Hammerhead,
                That is a good point about the BGI having been exposed time after time, but the “false but accurate” meme lives on. There’s got to be White racists out there attacking black children, so it goes on from case to case, even when proven wrong time after time the meme lives on. The BGI preaches it, the politicians make their careers on it, community organizers become President by it, the media gets enriched by it. That won’t change overnight, if ever but defeating time after time is a good start.

                • Most excellent comment, and so on target it screams that there is a difference between right and wrong, if only someone will pay attention to it. Alas, that doesn’t seem to be on the horizon, with the GZ case anyway.

                • Yes, that is certainly true. I hope someday it does work out like that. But again, like you said, even to do that much, he has to wait until George is exonerated first.

                  Then again, maybe he just knew Crump would discredit himself before he had to do anything. It’s certainly looking like that now, with the release of the ABC video. If he can get the BGI to discredit itself without having to look like the Big Mean White Man going after the Poor, Defenseless Civil Rights Attorney, then that might be even better.

                  • The thing is as you previously mentioned they are all discredited, the BGI does not care, as long as the meme survives, it will be effective. I think this was SD point, the meme has to be not just exposed but destroyed. Except that Martyrs are hard to come by, and no one wants to be the Big Mean White Man going after Poor, Defenseless Civil Rights Attorney. There are no awards, dinner invitations or memberships for that, quite the opposite.

              • HammerHead

                With respect I strongly disagree with you about the BGI, Until not long ago I had never heard of it and certainly had no knowledge on the level I do now, nor do any of my friends, some of whom still question what I say about it.

                I honestly believe that if ALL white folks knew the entire truth, White Guilt would rapidly begin to deteriorate so yes, there is a lot of educating that will have to be done first before there is ANY hope of change. There is simply no way that those changes will come peacefully,, not a chance. Please see some of posts here on this subject.

                Sorry but there will be a huge price to pay to end the tactics of Obama, Holder, Sharpton, Jackson, Jealous and the other powers. It will not happen without blood shed so thankfully we have the”dreaded” KKK and other white defenders of faith, who will be willing to put their boots on the ground to protect you and me in our own neighborhoods.

                • Well, you may be right. I always thought that most people knew about it. Everybody I talk to rolls their eyes the moment anyone brings up Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson or anyone like that. But I guess I don’t know everyone, after all.

                  But they have been exposed before. They were exposed with the Tawana Brawley case, the Crown Heights incident, the Duke lacrosse team incident and loads of others. Even in that movie “Barbershop”, there’s a scene where the black comedian Cedric the Entertainer goes on a rant about how black people just need to admit that everybody knows OJ was guilty and Rodney King deserved to get beaten. I’ve seen incidents of it right here in my sleepy little hometown (eerily enough, there was one kid who got shot by a cop while trying to break into a house. And guess what? HE supposedly wanted to be an astronaut too! I’ve always been sort of amazed by that.).

                  The problem, I think, is just that people have short memories. There are just lots of people who forget all about things once they’re over, and then the next bit of race-baiting comes along, and we’re right back where we started. Besides, most people have already lost interest in this case. Even if O’Mara were to say something, there wouldn’t be too many people listening anymore.

                  Sure, it would be nice if O’Mara did more to bring it down. But that’s a lot to ask from just one guy, considering that people have tried to bring it down before and not gotten anywhere. Especially since Mark O’Mara appears to be doing this all for free.

                  Personally, I think it’s people like bloggers who are doing the real heavy lifting here, and who will continue to do so. Ann Coulter recently put out a book called “Mugged” that’s all about the issue.

                  And incidentally, if you haven’t read “The Bonfire Of The Vanities”, I highly recommend you do so. It was written in the eighties, but it predicts so many aspects of this case, it’s not even funny. Skip the movie, though. It was pretty bad.

                  As far as hoping the KKK will defend us, I think that, in that case, the cure would be worse than the disease. Besides which, there are only a few thousand of those guys around. People are going to have to learn to defend themselves.

      • Well stated and that is exactly my opinion on this subject.

        Shellie Zimmerman did not lie, but BDLR did in fact lie to the court by removing parts of what she said in his affidavit when she was charged.

      • The skipping Part is that they kinda skip because they wear the pants so low they have to hold on to them so its a kinda Skip but run. Have you ever see them cross the road. they do that skip thing here in Oakland all the time.!!

        • Preston and Nettles – I’ve always believed the skip is actually a thing which George described accurately using street lingo, and has been perpetually misunderstood by the rest of us.

          Go to YouTube, do a search there for “Gangster skip”, or “Gangsta skip”. Pull up a vid, check it out, and also there will be plenty more example vids in the sidebar.

          I have always suspected that indeed Trayvon used it to taunt and insult the guy following him, sort of like we might send a “FU” to someone staring rudely at us out in public by elaborately thumbing our nose at them.

          Perhaps it was even used to deliberately provoke George to get him to follow him around the corner, and into the dark. Who knows?

          But, check it out, see what you think. Here’s one link, there are many more vids in the sidebar:

      • Nettles: You very well know that I greatly respect you, your insight and comments about this case. I missed out on all of the details of your departure from the TH and was sorry you left but I also have great respect for SD and would never intervene.

        I do have some questions about your comments but will wait until I have caught here as I am now a newbie her too.

        For now, I would like to know specifically, if you know, why MOM never has filed for indigent status aside from what he once posted on his site.

        Is also seems apparent to me that George lacks the intelligence and reasoning powers of his brother but that should be tempered by acknowledging his stress level.

        Sean’s interview? He was attempting to clarify previous statements made to LE about Trayvon running when he said skipping and I knew exactly what he meant but WOW, that was a huge mistake and the wrong place to do that. In a nutshell, it can only be called STUPID but was that his or MOM’s fault? IDK.

        Again, nice to catch up with you again. More questions later.

        • For those who haven’t seen the defense’s explanation on why they only want to file for indigent status as a last resort, mainly because it is so limiting on what is paid for, you can read it here:

          I cringe to think of the fallout of having the team have a hearing discussing why George needs help from the State. Can you imagine, in light of the allegations of lying and the lack of credibility earned, in the first bond hearing, the headlines about George, his credibility and the control he’d be giving the State over HIS defense. If I was the defendant, I’d be on my knees, begging those who believe in my defense, to help me avoid at all cost that predicament.

          Thankfully, it appears the donors are coming through. The first month’s goal was met. The defense is on a shoe-string budget and the staff is putting in loads of hours they aren’t being paid for because they believe in the system and they know it will do the right thing.

          I made a sizable donation to the fund and then read comments from others that they weren’t going to donate because he should be declared indigent, was disheartening. They in effect were making my donation worthless, or trying to. For a whole host of reasons, George having to file for indigent status now would be disastrous in my view. However, it’s an option if enough people don’t help.

            • Nettles IMO they should have filed long ago when the fund could have legally been separated from his assets .

                • We meet again! 😉 While I never got into the debate as hotly as you did at the Treehouse, I kept asking one thing: Even assuming MOM did do some things wrong back during the “Paypal Fiasco”, why keep bringing it up? I mean, even if we assume it’s all true, and even if it’s still having a negative impact today… what good does it do to bring it up every once in awhile? We can all be sitting calmly talking about this or that in the case, when someone brings up MOM and Paypal. Then suddenly the whole thing devolves into an anti-O’Mara thread. I just don’t get it. If there was a PURPOSE for doing that, if there was some kind of GOAL which would HELP GEORGE, I could understand. But otherwise, I kinda don’t get it. Who knows? Maybe there’s more than meets the eye…. we can hope.

                  • Hi Jello333! The timing on the last one stunk. BDLR had lots of people checking out the site by mentioning it in court twice and for those who decided to check out the site what did they see? The page bashing Mr. O’Mara and calls to not donate. Lovely. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

                  • IMO, the entire fiasco hurt George and the fund. You must notice how the rate of money coming in came to a halt. No point now in pointing fingers. There is blame to share but even my friends lost interest in the case and stopped sending money. To be honest, I did too, but my finances also changed.

                    • Hey Aussie! I’ve been reading your comments in here, but hadn’t yet got around to saying Hi, so…. HI!!! 😉 Glad to see you again….

                    • Hi Jello,
                      I hope that you will join me at my own blog. You of all people are most welcome… even though you are one of those “liberals”…. 🙂 but hey here in Australia I vote Liberal Party 🙂

                    • Jello use my blog called OpenThreads. Yes I go by OzzieAussie, but that is a low reader blog.

                      The OpenThreads blog is meant to cover a lot of topics including the Zimmerman case

                • I recall a discussion about that around the time that O’Mara took over the fund. Lots of folks were not happy with the way that happened and may have included the Bar.

                  Supposedly there was a legal strategy that George could have used to avoid that money being counted as assets if he had filed for indigent status back then.

                  All of that Paypal mess and the perjury charges could have been avoided if everything was done above the board. I still fault O’Mara, to some degree, for that. For sure the fund lost its momentum and has never regained it. I have often thought he could have raised a million on his own.

                  I do think that a lot of folks developed a mistrust of O’Mara and stopped giving.

                  Then later, MOM promised regular updates and that did not happen either, at least on the level we expected.

                  IMO, Beasley or someone else may have come up with a lot of money, if MOM is going to defend George properly.

                  How will the defense actually get paid now if the suits yield nothing?

                  One last thing about what O’Mara later wrote about the limitations of expenses, wouldn’t the state pay their pay allotted amount and wouldn’t that leave George to use additional money from the fund?

                  Perhaps I misunderstood when I first noticed it. There were several Florida legal blogs commenting early on but they could have all been wrong, too. IDK.

                  • Supposedly, may have, could have ??

                    It was a bad idea to have the fund in George’s control and the bond hearing should have made that clear to everyone. Mr. O’Mara and George set up a 3rd party administrator, in which neither of them had control of the fund. A priority list of how payments would be administered was drafted and communicated. First priority, GZ’s living expenses, 2nd priority bond, 3rd priority defense expenses and 4th priority payment of lawyers fees. Mr. O’Mara and Mr. West put themselves dead last on the list. The criticism coming their way to two highly respected lawyers working for free astounds me.

                    It’s long overdue to put the issue to rest. For those who should be donating but don’t want to for whatever ridiculous reason they can come up with to justify sitting on their wallets, go ahead. The rest of us will try to do it.

                    We can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Those who chose not to donate are adding to the problem in this case. That’s a fact.

                    • I am in agreement with you Nettles, we can’t keep rehashing old battles and we need to move forward, talk about the case not about the issues some of us had at the CTH, let’s be appreciative of all the work they did in collaboration with us. It is good that we are all here, let’s try to move and get along. Just a suggestion, but I hope all of can agree on it.

                    • Agreed and am sorry that I did not keep links of the Florida lawyers blogs but at one time that was my primary source of information. They were the first things I ever posted at the CTH.

                      My son in law, also a lawyer here in Florida turned me on to some of them.

                      I do try to provide sources when I post but at 66, memory is not the same.

          • That’s something I absolutely can’t go along with: The people who say they’re not gonna donate to the fund because of O’Mara. Some people love MOM, some hate him, most (I think) are in the middle. But even if a person hates him, to use that as a reason to say they’re gonna not donate? That’s just wrong. (And to his credit, I think Sundance has said that’s wrong, too.)

            • I’m only piggy backing here because there is no room to reply on above posts (Nothing personal). imo, everyone needs to stop the arguing about what should have been done in the past. It is not helping George’s case nor George’s mental health for bloggers to go on and on about things that happened months ago and cannot be changed. I neither love nor hate anyone involved in the case. I do detest the politics. As a resident of Florida, I am concerned about justice and the law. There are way too many Monday Morning quarterbacks taking up space trying to prove they are right. If George and his family are satisfied with the defense team, then we all just need to accept it. It is nobody’s business whether someone donates to the fund or not and their reasons are their own. Public arguing and criticizing Mark O’Mara is not helping George’s case. It is neither the time nor the place for it. I’m putting away my soapbox so I can concentrate on the evidence and hopefully others will do the same.

        • Hey, Jordan! I left a reply about “skipping” up above, which I’d love for you to locate and read. But, in a nutshell, I think “skipping” is a street lingo term which George was hip to, and the rest of us, not so much.

          Check out this video, and also the ones on the sidebar dealing with the same “gangsta” moves:

      • Nettles18

        I have grave concerns about George ever being on the stand. As minor as they are, he has made too many discrepancies to easily explain when intimidated by BLDR. Bernie has NO compassion in his body.

        His brother is much more eloquent while George lacks good communication skills. George’s honesty almost looks suspicious if that makes sense as if he is still hiding something.

        I personally thought the Hannity interview was a mistake. He took that risk because he needed money and Sean had agreed to plug the defense fund but he never did that. It was not a net gain for George and MOM squirmed because he knew it.

        God’s Plan and skipping both came out wrong.. to his detriment.

        The last part of the interview never aired except that it was briefly available online but I still wonder who made the decision to pull it and why the defense fund was ignored. That could have been done later so was it Fox decision?

        I have been hoping that Fox or someone will do an expose on the case now that more truth has been revealed but maybe it’s true that the BGI and the DOJ-CRS are in complete control.. no conspiracy theory intended but there is a reason why Benajamin Crump, the Scheme Team and the State of Florida continue to get passes in the face of insurmountable proof of lies and manipulations. NO ONE wants to go there.. yet, it could easily be THE blockbuster story of the year. Witness and evidence tampering along with prosecutorial misconduct are serious issues that no reputable newspaper can ignore easily.

        I did read on a Florida legal blog long ago, that the State may not be able to use all of George’s different statements in court and that an agreement will be reached about which one best meets his most consistent and intended narrative.

        Does that make sense to you?

        • I share some of your fears. An upside of going directly to trial, depending on how it goes, George may have the luxury of remaining silent if the State fails to prove it’s case.

          There is more pressure, I think, in an immunity hearing for the defendant to take the stand and explain what happened. Often in self-defense cases, the defendant is the only witness and the burden to prove it was self defense lies with the defense. I believe the State was praying to the Gods, they would get an opportunity to trip George up to help them with their very weak case.

          Now, they have to do it without his taking the stand potentially. It will be interesting to watch what statement(s) they try to get in. Even Judge Lester saw the statements from George as exculpatory.

    • 2 Thumbs Up, stevie g.! (that’s about all I’ve got or there’d be more)

      I totally agree with everything you’ve written, and am glad to see your name up in lights again.


      Excellent job diwataman, and I think you’re on the right track with your choice of GZ topics — this sort of approach makes a lot of sense and by it’s nature keeps the comments on topic.

      The original layout had a certain spartan quality to it, clean and neat, so this “remodel” startled me at first. But I’ll get used to it.

      What disturbs me greatly is how well-organized you are. If I may explain, Your Honor: I’m disturbed because it only shows me how completely and devastatingly DISORGANIZED I am, and spins me even more into a deep downward spiral of depression. See, it’s all your fault LOL. No, I’m serious, especially since I read that you are a one-man operation! You should write a book, o diwataman, entitled “Organizing For Dummies.”

      Oh, and are you going to add a “Donation” button? I’ll watch for one & act accordingly.

      Buena suerte, buona fortuna, mazel tov, good luck and congratulations!

    • Actually, the surest way to be banned from CTH was to be rude or patronizing to any of the Admins, and most people had ample warning before the ban hammer came down. I don’t blame them. That is one of the things that keeps the place pleasant.

      • Not true. The easiest way to be banned was to be “preceived” to be a prog.

        I found the Tree, TalkLeft and Wagist during the formative phase of this case.

        I happen to believe in building common cause across partisan boundaries, some of the admin at the Tree do not, and while Ad Rem seems kind and considerate, others there are quite the opposite. Rhetoric over reason, righteousness over dialog.

        They undermine some of their goals IMHO, using the same tactics they rail against. I read the blog for the trial content, and avoid making comments. In my community I have been working locally for years countering the injustices and negative influence of the minority grievance industry.

        Sundance crosses the line with specuation and when asked for evidence, his admin team chastises those that challenge.

        There has been a series of purges, the latest one over the alleged lack of integrity of O’Mara.
        They result to the adage “your either with us or against us” and “get out” far too easily imo.

        • “imo”

          Interesting perspective from someone who was rude and nasty, so got banned.
          Not many Conservatives self-identify as “community organizers”.
          FWIW, from what I read, I didn’t really see you contributing anything of value….”imo”

          • btw I was not banned. In fact, Sundance wrote an entry early on about my experiences with the DoJ CRS, admitting his lack of familiarity with the agency. I do not agree with his view that the CRS instructs Judge Nelson. The comment about community organizing is strange, organizing a neighborhood watch is community organizing.

          • Karen,

            Are you informing me that I need to be a conservative to post here? or at the Treehouse? or express a concern about the injustices in this case?

          • Karen, sorry to reply in pieces correcting this unwelcoming and inaccurate comment. see

            I am the progressive who informed Sundance about my positive experiences with the DoJ CRS. And your right, I believe in challenging my government to be accountable through community organizing and believe one can work within and outside the system to accomplish such.

            • Well, I, for one have serious doubts about the role of the DOJ-CRS in this case and no longer know what to believe.

              However, I am convinced of the role of the BGI and they are at the top of my personal most hated enemies list. Whatever progress had ever been made in race relations has now vanished. It is their mission to perpetrate hatred and they do a very fine job including inducting me and my white friends into a new attitude. I at least now know how to recognize their arrival into any situation. Seeing Sharpton and/or Jackson inspires to me get my gun even though I try to keep my cool. One of these days, white guilt will evolve into what it really always should have been.

              I faithfully read Fred on Everything and he has influenced me more than anyone else. Fred Reed is brilliant


              I feel compelled to reprint just one of his many articles here:


              The Need to Lynch Zimmerman
              The Coming Race War in America

              April 19, 2012

              The Coming Race War in America was published in 1996 by Carl Rowan, the black columnist and former ambassador to Finland. The title is not ironic. He foresaw a major racial explosion. The book of course was furiously ignored. It should not have been. It dealt with an apocalyptic vision that has lurked around the edges of American consciousness since before the Civil War. And still does. We just don’t talk about it.

              What has this to do with Zimmerman?

              This: Our racial policy has proved a disaster. Sixty years after Brown vs. the School Board, blacks have not assimilated. They constitute a separate people having almost nothing in common with the surrounding European society. They fiercely maintain their identity with their own music, dialect, customs, dress, and names. All attempts to turn them into middle-class whites in darker packaging have failed. Only relentless governmental pressure forces an appearance of partial integration.

              Let’s consider a few awkward facts that loom ghoulishly above the body politic, which seems to be decomposing. First, on every known measure of cognitive ability, on IQ, SATs, GREs, everything, blacks average about one standard deviation, fifteen IQ points, below whites. The gap is a fact. It exists. It is reflected in performance. It has proved intractable. In a technological civilization that rewards intelligence, the deficit sharply limits legitimate access to the higher reaches of money, power, class, and prestige.

              Second, blacks continue to show little interest in schooling. Exceptions and degrees, yes. Yet consider cities such as Washington, which usually has a black mayor, black city council, mostly black school board, black staffs in the schools, black parents, black students, a high per-capita expenditure—and perhaps the worst schools in the country. This is a fact, and shows no signs of diminishing. It is repeated in countless cities.

              If the United State had large numbers of manual jobs that paid a living wage, as for example assembling cars, things might not be so bad. But the United States no longer has many such jobs. The economy has no need for huge numbers of people who read at the level of second-graders, if that. The existence of these people is a fact. When such jobs exist, as for example on police forces, better qualified whites are invariably available. Without remedial intervention, the academic and professional worlds, the managerial ranks of blue-collar trades, would turn almost pure white, and there would be actual hunger in the inner cities.

              The solution, to the extent that it can be called a solution, has been a combination of welfare and affirmative action. Each has produced its own kind of dependency. Whites in their own way depend on welfare payments to blacks in that ending welfare would send the cities up in flames. We now have dense concentrations of unemployed, unemployable blacks leading meaningless lives in rotting cities. They are angry, blame whites for their troubles, and do not have a lot to lose. The torching of Los Angeles in 1992 is endlessly repeatable. Only a spark is needed.

              None of this improves, and it seems to be getting worse. On the Drudge Report and elsewhere on the web, video after cell phone video appears of pack-attacks by feral blacks on whites and Asians. These attacks often result in brain damage: the attackers are trying to hurt the victims badly, and usually laugh while doing it. Other videos time and again show black teenagers looting Seven-Elevens. The perpetrators show no signs of worry about being caught. They know that white police wouldn’t dare arrest thirty black adolescents.

              Whites are frightened of blacks. They are afraid of taking the wrong exit from the freeway and ending up in a black ghetto. They are afraid when they pass young black males in a dark neighborhood. White women clutch their purses and cross the street, try not to get into elevators with them. The fear, seldom mentioned, determines where whites live, where they go, and where they send their children to school.

              This unacknowledged fear engenders unacknowledged consequences. When white men buy guns, journalistic organs of that prissy rectitude we call political correctness—the Washington Post, probably National Review—speak of gun nuts, psychosexual inadequacies, and sordid fantasies. Hardly. The purchasers of guns have in mind defending their families should the need arise. The buyers do not fear attack by Jewish violinists.

              Government also is afraid of blacks. Los Angeles burned because blacks didn’t like the outcome of a trial. Recently cities in England went up because a policeman shot a black. The Zimmerman shooting looks very similar, and blacks are very angry. Jesse Jackson has said that Trayvon was “hunted down like a rabid dog in the street,” that he was “murdered and martyred,” that it was a “hate crime.”

              These are the words of a man looking for a fight. One may be available. Charging Zimmerman with murder buys time. If he is acquitted….

              The signs are ominous. Tension rises in America. Incomes fall, foreclosures rise, jobs go east, police powers increase, trust in government evaporates, and expectations for the future decline. An unfocused edginess germinates. It is not a recipe for domestic tranquility.

              The response of whites to riots by blacks has always been to back away. This prudence, as it is thought to be, has been enforced by the government. If a minority in Russia started burning cities, the army would shoot the rioters on sight. America doesn’t work that way, or hasn’t recently. The lack of consequences for beatings and flash-mobbings, the history of saying “racism” and walking, produces a sense of untouchability in blacks. It could be a mistake.

              A spring is being wound. On one hand, when you live in a sprawling tightly packed concentration of people like yourself, it is easy to forget that you are very much a minority, that the majority holds all the high cards, and that food doesn’t really come from Safeway.

              On the other hand, via the internet whites now know of the racial attacks, and grow quietly very sick of them. There is among many white men an undercurrent of “Bring it on.” This is not confined merely to cops, soldiers, conservatives, Southerners, westerners, the rural and the blue-collar. You can find it, carefully hidden, in federal offices and even among men in newsrooms. The extent of this sentiment is easy to underestimate. Those who share it don’t dare express it, and most journalists live in ideological bubbles.

              We must lynch Zimmerman.

              • Thanks for sharing that, Jordan. I’m white and my best friend (not ‘some of my friends’) is black. He absolutely hates the vast majority of blacks. The stories he tells are abysmal. I’ve also noticed blatant racism against him. I wrote him a check for a motorcycle and he tried to cash it at a branch of my bank. The way they treated him was awful. Not sure where I’m going with this, but – in spite of your presented data / anecdotes – I wish that there could be racial harmony in out country.

                • I suggest you subscribe to Fred on Everything. I love Fred Reed


                  There is NO peaceful solution to the current state of race relations. It is much too profitable and gives the Progs a permanent hold in politics that they have worked hard to achieve. Do a study of the inner workings of the BGI and you will find that you recognize most of the power players, including Holder and Obama.

                  Notice how they ignore black on black crime, particularly in Chicago. Chicago is a well run scheme and lots of folks make lots of money on it. I have read several in depth well documented exposes about how it works. There is no real plan to dismantle it.

                  No constructive substantial changes that benefit everyone have ever made in America without violence and that goes back to our roots.

                  I do not dare guess how that war will actually get started or how it will play itself out but I want to believe that White Guilt is coming to an end. We can no longer afford to keep them at bay and confined to leave us alone while they wallow in their own increasing filth at our expense.

                  There is a certain segment of blacks who refuse to assimilate into a predominately white society. I say refuse but it could also be that they are incapable. For sure, they are well led and taught to hate whitey for his past ,,, and continued sins.

                  The Progs now outnumber us and I doubt that we will ever see another true conservative president. That was the message on November 8th.

                  Intelligent, articulate folks like Alan Keyes, Thomas Howell, Tim Scott, Allen West and the likes of them are not even considered to be true blacks.

                  My attitude toward blacks and the BGI is now on an irreversible course to do everything I can possibly do in providing assistance to utterly destroy them.

                  At least we have some groups who are willing to put boots on the ground. Say whatever you wish about the KKK and other white organizations but you might be thankful for them one day when they defend you and your family. They will be willing to take the battle to the streets, in full battle gear, and protect our white neighborhoods. They might very well fight for the Progs who openly detest them.

                  Birds of a feather tend to flock together and I think God knew what He was doing when he created separate races. Peace.

                  • I guess that’s part of the conundrum – some brilliant folks who I enjoy reading and truly respect are black, e.g., Sowell, Keyes, yet I despise the BGI and its band of shysters, e.g., Jackson, Sharpton.

        • “Not true. The easiest way to be banned was to be “preceived” to be a prog.”

          Hi Cassandra,

          Perhaps people who were perceived to be progs (still dont understand what that has to do with anything if the truth is the agenda) were not banned just for that reason but I got a sense (could be wrong) that the opinions of some others were far more valued than others and wondered what that was based on if all what is known of me is my user name .

          Yes, Ad Rem seems to be very kind and considerate.

          “They undermine some of their goals IMHO, using the same tactics they rail against”

          I have had some thoughts about this too and posted something about doxing being wrong for anyone to do including the CTH. My post about it didn’t get me banned but I was not afforded the respect of a reply to my concern either. .Later, I thought maybe I overreacted.

          Personally, I believe GZ case is not a prog or a conservative thing and maybe that is my naivety about politics showing. However, I don’t believe any one person, any one blog or any one political party has a monopoly on what is truth. Whatever we know, it filtered through our individual minds where subjectivity comes into play. So it is a quest for truth and that encompasses many perspectives.

          With that being said, I believe everyone should be heard, and their opinions respected,. Doesn’t mean we have to agree, like each other. But everyone has something to add to the mix and its a diversity of perspectives and a blending of them that allow us hope for truth.

          Kudos to all, the CTH, Diwataman, and so many others who are on the quest for truth in this GZ case. A focusing on the facts of this case is really what it is about IMHO.

          Thank you for my say Cassandra.

          • Ditto and thx.

            I value diversity of thought over any form of diversity.

            The intersection of social, political and legal issues involved in this case makes it very challenging and at the same time very important to race relations, self defense laws, and how communities respond to crime.

            This case feels personal to me, because of my experiences and leadership over the last 15 years organizing our racially diverse high crime neighborhood in uber-liberal Berkeley.

            Free GZ

            • I used to visit folks in “the flatlands” during my time at Cal, Cassandra. That’s a tough job you do, that requires a very special kind of “tough love” person. I hope you don’t burn out because we need you — Berkeley needs you, the USA needs you. I wish you every success.

              On first arrival on campus, I was sleeping in my ’53 Studebaker in a paid-for covered parking space until I found the Y across from the P.O. Took me 6 months to find a place to live & ended up in a studio @ 1185 Keith, in the Hills, for four years, and I loved every second of it. Thanks to the GI Bill, I made it through, but was sorry to leave in ’72 because, like everyone else, I wanted to stay there forever.

              You’re so fortunate to be in that wonderfully diverse environment while doing the work that brings you satisfaction. Can’t ask for more.

              • thanks JB, I grew up in LA.
                Keith Ave. is lovely, north Berkeley is like another city compared to the flatlands where crack took hold. Back in the ’73 there was 23 homicides nearby, now 1-5, big change.

          • Jello survives by fitting in and being honest. I never thought he was a phoney in any manner,, a little mixed up ideologically at times but not afraid to speak his mind and defend his positions. We are fairly close and I was once sternly rebuked (shamed) for suggesting him as a mod. I only meant well. It was at a time when I perceived that traffic was heavy and comments were in moderation but I personally like all of the mods there even if they do not all like me. One picks up on those vibrations after a while.

          • Tell me about it, Aussie!

            I wrote about the “demonization of Mark M.O’Mara, Esq.” and got blasted by S.(Admin). If it wasn’t demonization, what was it? Those ridiculous attacks, day in and day out took me to the boiling point to where I had to speak up. That and the nonsense that we shouldn’t DONATE to the GZLegalFund! I kept using the words “counter-productive and self-defeating” because they seemed to sum up for me the direction we were heading.

            Banned? Don’t know and couldn’t care less.

            Glad to see so many righteous warriors here and @ TL, RT & Mike McD’s site.

            Bottom Line (from a post or two @ CTH): We are at WAR and we need to support our 2 Leaders in the battle to the death against the Forces of Evil. Let’s kick their azzes, Gen. O’Mara and Gen. West. This is WAR !!!

            • well I got banned there ages ago. I have other issues with them anyway, and I am a conservative person.

              I am making my own blog available for those who want somewhere to talk among themselves on the subject.

              I read the other sites too, and am happy to provide links when there is fruitful information.

              Diwataman is one of my first go to blogs and TalkLeft is another because both stick to the facts without the speculation.

              • You just disappeared one day. We never knew why except you were missed. When that happens, no one wants to explain, SD did give me a brief explanation about Nettles because he knew of my level of respect for her and I was not going to stop asking questions without hearing something that made sense. I still do NOT quite get it except they were both vocal about MOM and I guess SD perceived her as being disrespectful to him. NO ONE CAN DO THAT THERE and I accept it to prevent chaos. There can only be ONE leader and that’s Sundaance, deservedly so. His heart is in it along with his money and he keeps boots on the ground as do others there.

                • That’s true. When I posted this:

                  I received an email from Sundance telling me I had disparaged him and as a result my comment was deleted. I was bid farewell. I wrote back it wasn’t my intention to disparage him, I liked him and I apologized if I had done that. I got no reply.

                  Later, Sundance did post my comment, filled with his commentary and a friend sent it to me. In reading his reply, I thought perhaps the paragraph about some thinking they were running the defense was directed at him personally. It was not. I posted a reply this wasn’t directed at him but rather anyone who had the notion that what they were posting was solely influencing the defense was missing the mark. He never allowed it to be published.

                  Instead, he emailed that I shouldn’t consider him a fool and that the sentence that a blogger was against Mr. O’Mara was directed at him.

                  It doesn’t matter what any of us think, it matters on how Sundance chose to take it. I still think my position on supporting Mr. O’Mara got my voice shut down at the Treehouse but today it’s water under the bridge.

                  • itmikenotmichael was banned early on for his nuanced view of MOM legal strategy. He coined the phrase “the Scheme Team”. There were many others during that purge. I found his contributions very insightful.

                    • Nettles: My question was for stevie g who was also banned at the TH. For the record, I was also banned there twice over misunderstanding and was NEVER able to explain in full what I had been trying to say but some of posters defended me and they let me back in but it did upset me. As far as I know I have a good rapport with everyone there with one exception and that person never apologized to me even though I held out the olive branch more than once. He had a bad habit of accusing me of being a troll and had ulterior motives but never provided any proof. Jello was one the few who challenged him.

                      I have become good buddies with jello. He has plenty of time to post and reads every comment.

                    • My bad. The CTH blog belongs to Sundance. His site, his rules. I have no hard feelings. I am sincere when I say I enjoyed my time there.

                      We all have a common goal in uncovering the lies and corruption that allowed this case to get as far as it has. We also will have many different opinions on how to go about shining a light on it.

                      Let’s hope that together, the people who do care are able to expose some of it so this never happens to anyone else. Thanks so much to Diwataman for giving us a venue to express those ideas.

                    • I was purged about the same time as Mike and I could not care less about that…. the whole thing was stupid… and on top of that SD was wrong to blame me when someone else unknown to me had a go about grammar which is not my style… I just hated stuff like tenant instead of tenet.

      • No Karen there were a few that got power hungry and banned because they could. You don’t Ban someone that had been posting for 9 mths. And the Admin get’s rude and ban’s you.

        • the admin told me to get stuffed and I returned the compliment… and then I was banned. Since then they have lied about me on several occasions.

            • it is too old now to even care.

              My point was always that one needed to at least know the difference between tenant and tenet. It was always my beef. I never had a go about grammar because I make mistakes too. Also I do not pick people up when it is an obvious keyboard error, but tenant instead of tenet really bugs me…..

              I used to needle SD and the admins at the treehouse always took an attitude that was in my view rather stupid and missed the point….

              So one morning…. and then one of the admins told me to stuff it… so I replied in kind….

              I have not been allowed to post over there. I have not ever protested about grammar and anyone who did so was not me.

      • There is a rumor on the “net” you are providing a home for refugees. Yet, up top I see you are not; yet you are directing traffic to the tent city! I want to camp out until George walks out of court without that dang ankle bracelet on his leg. May Justice finally come to George Michael Zimmerman!

        Thanks so much to all the admin. people at the Last Refuge. You guys rock! I enjoyed my time there. To Sundance, a huge thank you for what you did in bringing light and truth to this case. My very best wishes to all the bloggers over there. A great group of people working for a common goal.

        May Mr. O’Mara and Mr. West find the support needed to level the playing field in this farce of a case and may the State of Florida, come to its’ senses soon.

        • Emoticons, smileys, gifs, there’s a bunch of different sites that give you the html code for them, I’ll soon grow tired of them I’m sure but sometimes they are a good way of expressing oneself in the context of and within a comment to give it the feeling behind or intent behind the comment itself i.e. often I’ll throw a smiley in because sometimes a comment can be read as being critical in a negative way even though you’re trying to be helpful and such. Sometimes just for fun as well.

      • DMan: It took me a while but I finally found this place. Thanks. I was ready to go the damn hospital.

        You have done, as I expected, a marvelous job.

  4. I really like your site but understand you not being able to run a daily GZ thread. I will settle for what you do provide and your insight. Thanks for welcoming us.

  5. Glad to see some familiar names here. Sure did miss you Nettles. Thanks D-Man for keepin’ on keepin’ on. I for one, think the daily threads had become stale and redundant. I always checked here for the latest updates anyway. Looking forward to Nettles and you keeping us informed on the facts in the case.

      • I sure hope so too, nettles. Btw, I agreed with evrything you said when you “left” the other site. I even did a Google search for you. Also want to say to D-Man- the new site is da bomb 🙂

      • I agree with you Nettles18. I honestly hope that the case will implode because the whole thing has been a set up from the beginning.

        I might be an outsider to the USA but I can think for myself, and in my view it was self-defense. Everything points to self-defense and Zimmerman should never have been charged.

        Someone mentioned Crown Heights. There is an Australian connection because the man who was murdered by someone in the crowd was Australian.

  6. D-Man, Really nice site redo. I’m glad you added comments. And I agree with the person above who praised your organizational skills — they are really impressive.

  7. Well D-man looks like we are coming your way whether u like it or not,lollllllllll……………Thank you for providing a place for us to discuss the case

  8. The only odd thing is CTH still points you to here, for the daily thread, a day after you said no. I’ll post the occasional comment, mainly for the wealth of information but why is a second link still there a day later?

      • Hi Jordan – I think that all the “Posters” here have reached the conclusion that George is innocent. That he was attacked by a “Racist” who was indeed black and “angry”. That this Trayvon was probably “high” on some drug or drugs, and he lay in wait for George to come to the “T” so he could attack George. ALL the objective evidence shows that to be the case. Only the Sociopath-Liar could generate a false witness (DeeDee) against George’s truthful statements. Crump managed to “warp” the entire Florida “Judicial System” to accomplish his purpose. This is far worse than the NiFong tragedy. That is a “summary” of what I think the CTH believes is true. I only wish there was a way that Corey-Bernie could stop their “madness” about what they are doing. Much of what I said (the evidence) comes directly from D-man – and I thank him for his attention to these details.

        • myopiafree

          True all of that. I never understood why you were banned at the CTH. Was that done publicly or by email?

  9. I got nuttin’ to say. Just wanted to check my “notify… via e-mail” box. 🙂

    It’s easier for me that way. 😮

  10. D-Man, I know it costs money to maintain websites and I would like to make a donation to help maintain the site. Please email me privately where to send a check. Others might want to donate as well?

    • While this case has cost me in more ways than just financially the website itself happens to be free, well except for time consumed and cost of ISP but I had the internet anyway ;), so no worries on that particular aspect. I do this this because I want to, not looking for money.

      • None of us could afford to pay for the time you have put in. I can only speak for myself, but you are the best. THANK YOU!!!

          • hey, hey, hey! What is this? My eyes see “‘lil annie” once again! I’ve been looking all around at CTH for you…..was wondering where you went. Am so glad to see you are fine!! I haven’t seen dmoseylou or little laughter either for some time now. hmmmm
            Well, I must say—– I (100%) agree………………………D-Man IS the the Man……..for sure!!
            AND much appreciated…. more than he can possibly know.

            Once this is over and done with, and George prevails (I pray), how the heck does he get his life back!

            • {{{hey hey hey}}}}} Been thinkin’ about ya! You and dmoseylou were the first ones to tell me about D-man & the CTH! D-man had a fan club before any of us even signed on to the tree house. The others don’t post as much any more but they are still around. I miss the really old days though- been trying to remember if we left the first group voluntarily or got banned because admin. became a part of the Rubbermaid Brigade. We sure had a fantastic amin. for awhile while the owner of the site was ill though- Guess it is true that all good things come to an end 😉

              • […] 🙂 Truth be told dmseylou was THE one who brought D-man, as well as CTH to everyone’s attention. I had nothing to do with the discovery. But what a great find!!!! And D-man’s fan club was immediately formed (I want to put smilies here but I know they too many can clutter things up and I don’t think D-man would appreciate it). All I did was bring his pic over (BIG smilie goes here).

                I,too, miss the ‘old days’. As soon as I saw the “make no sense-hang him now” group was allowed back in I left immediately and never been back. Their behavior to us was like a scene from “Gaslight”.
                No way could I listen to the nonsense again—“Zimmerman should have shot Martin in the foot” (yeah, riiiight) and all the rest of it. Plus all the hate got to me in a big way. I feel some just use that blog to transfer the hate within their own life and circumstances imo. Hate for people, for any reason, is evil territory and doesn’t work for me. Some may see it differently but that’s just the way I roll.

                btw I would like to change my name a bit. I want to drop the “a”. I’ll see if D-man will let me. So keep that in mind.

      • “I do this this because I want to, not looking for money.”

        Labor of love is its own reward but donations of gratitude from peeps that appreciate can be considered 🙂

  11. Hi D-Man – Thanks! We will all reduce our “posting” here – but we DO need a “meeting place” for now. Is that OK with you – and the rest of the fine people posting here. Just keep this “blog” open for us and updates about George – until we can work out something better.

    • You are all welcome to comment on any of my posts. You are all welcome to gather amongst yourselves and talk about the case if you like though I do prefer that when I blog about anything it not turn into a “GZ open thread”. If you just want to make a random comment that is what this is for:

      While I appreciate Sundance making people aware of my blog he set a tone that is incorrect to this blog. This blog is not “One big Open GZ thread” nor do its contents consist solely of the case itself. I have no issue with Sundance other than how he has recently framed my involvement in this case and this blog so don’t take that the wrong way.

      So again, feel free to comment and come and go as you wish, my blog will remain until I die or something, lol.

      • Thank you for providing this blog Diwataman. I was unclear if this was something you wanted to happen, or if it was something undesirable thrown in your lap. Your welcome to all answers that question. Thank you for all you have done, and undoubtedly will continue to do.

        BTW, since welcoming everyone, are you planning on buying the property next to you? LOL

        • minpin and everyone else, I continue to make the offer that I have a blog called openthreads which means it is open to any topic.

          I welcome people who are respectful. You might disagree with my topics of choice but you do not have to comment about the topics.

          At the moment I am caught up with political matters in Australia and yes I really hope that we will get our election soon!!

          Everyone is welcome. Even when I am away, so long as I have approved you to comment you can come and comment.

      • With ya on that. I know that. It is all the legal twists and turns that get in the way of your direct approach. What a great job you have done. Keep up the good work. I still think the Stooges will be a factor.

  12. I am a lurker. Have been reading at CTH a while now. Thanks diwataman for keeping a place open where I can agree with most everything that is posted. Keep up the good work! Thanks for keeping me informed.

    • I’m a CTH lurker as well. Have not posted there – mainly because someone else had pretty much explained in much clearer detail what I wanted to say. 🙂

      But I hope to keep up with the analysis and discussion as more discovery comes forward. The work Dman, Walterppk, etc contribute to the understanding of the evidence is stellar.

      • Another CTH lurker here (for about a year now). The GZ has fascinated me as I can’t believe what the media, politicians, and the state have done…so far. I appreciate reading about the antics of the media as well as all the evidence that is discussed at CTH.

        Look forward to lurking here as well!

  13. One of the scariest parts of this case is the cost to defend against the full force and fury of the state of Florida. Who among us has a cool half million to defend ourselves when accused? Luckily the injustices in this case have come to light but there are many defendants who do not have the resources or the stamina to fight the system. See, for example, Three Felonies a Day, a book by Harvey Silverglate, the title being the average number of felonies each and every one of us commit every day, should the government so choose to prosecute us. There are thousands of cases where defendants take a plea, even if wrongly accused, just to put an end to the nightmare. How then does the government decide whom to prosecute and whom to let go? Favorites, of course. Media pressure, surely. Personal biases, absolutely.

    In the words of the great one, “Government is not the solution to our problem; government IS the problem.”

    • Reminds me of the Andy Griffiths show episode, where Barney is left in charge, and enforces *all* of the town rules, to the absolute letter of the law. The Sheriff gets back, and everyone in town is behind bars ….. 🙂

  14. I have a blog called OpenThreads. If anyone wants to talk about Trayvon then I am happy to host the discussion.

    These days I am an occasional poster to the blog because Australian politics are at an interesting stage…

    However, once you have approval to post you can post on any thread. I am willing to put up one post called open thread where you can make comments.

    Note: I am tough with commenters, especially trolls and yes I got kicked off CTH so anyone else who used to be there and was kicked out is welcome.

      • you are welcome ejarra and please if you want then come along and have a conversation.

        I am making the offer to everyone who wants to add least discuss things but not get too bogged down in stale stuff 🙂

        If only you knew what is going on over here 🙂 and hopefully we will get rid of our Marxist government.

    • Hi Aussie – I would like to keep “our group” together. But we do need an organization – or we scatter to the four winds. For now, until we can get better organized we can stay with Dman. Maybe Dman could start a new “topic” and we could follow his leadership – if that is OK with Dman. I think we “over-did-it” on CTH, but I truly enjoyed the discussions.

      • Myopiafree my blog is available for those who want to have somewhere to talk.

        It is up to Dman, but I am prepared to set aside an open thread for CTH people who just want to converse and pass on bits and piece.

        Dman is one of the blogs I read when I am using my blog reader 🙂

        I am simply offering another port in the storm so that we can converse together and let Dman continue his great work.

  15. Everyone has tantrums I guess, but it is very rude of them to link today’s thread to your site again after you nicely said this is not what it is for. The new look is amazing, great job. I guess I will be coming here more being one of the main reasons I went there was for the Z case. You have always done a great job on your posts and if you need anything just shout. Cheers

  16. Want to say hey to all of you and say thanks to D-Man for allowing a place for us lurkers from the other site to go and get our fix on the Zimmerman fiasco. Y’all may remember that I sent an email to my governor, Rick Scott, and received his reply that he had no influence or control over what the AG’s office does; further suggesting that I send my “complaints” directly to Angela Corey. I did send her an email, including my original email, Gov Scott’s reply and a preface explaining why I was contacting her about the case. She or her office has yet to reply, but I will let y’ll know as soon as I receive any statement from her at all.

    It is good to see some of the folks that I have missed from the CTH here too. Didn’t quite understand why they left or the circumstances surrounding their departure……

  17. Thanks for welcoming us to your site, Dman. My fear is that the site will soon be bombarded by trolls. which will create the need for full time moderation. The haters will find us. Perhaps you have already thought of this and have a plan. Best of luck with this, and I hope it doesn’t snowball on you.

    • It will not. A Troll is an opposite opinion. I have never understood about “trolls.” Like in a trial you have the state v. the defendant. I am advocating for the defendant v. the state. Holdintg the state’s feet to the fire is the best thing one can do. JMO.

    • Hi Jordan – I agree about the ebonic DeeDee! But it gets worse when Omara deposes her.
      Judge – at the Tiral> DeeDee, Do you swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth – THIS TIME?
      DeeDee> Yes, this time I will REALLY, REALLY WILL TELL THE TRUTH. Trust me!

    • Yep, now it makes perfect sense, jordan. It also makes me wonder if Crumps recording equip. was made in Tamaria???

    • The satire in the post was funny, but the point he is trying to make about DD legitimate or not, that when it comes to DD we need to allow her to explain things her way, and that we need to see it as she does to understand is not. Specially coming from people who want to parse every syllable that GZ says, without giving a context.

      Forgive DD she is Tamarian and can’t explain things so that we can understand, but GZ crucify because of what he says.

      • Oh, I got that. He is just a funny guy. No I do not agree with him or some of the others there either. The conversation, at times, is now getting to be absurd but it shows what the other side thinks and why. I find it all so interesting and do appreciate their thinking, as warped as it may seem to you and me.

  18. Well, what happened? Why did a formerly enthusiastic follower of the Martin-Zimmerman case like Sundance decide he didn’t want it on his site anymore? I hope it didn’t have anything to do with anything I said. 🙂

    • Ricky Jimenez

      Nice to see you here;

      IMO, Sundance has far bigger and more specific things planned for the site. Moderation had become an issue. Folks were discussing things that had nothing to do with the case. He wanted it to be more focused on the issues. If you noticed, there were often email exchanges between him and our best true investigators. There are those there who do a lot of research for him.

      He has recently experimented with a password and I know he has requested and received a mountain of information from FOI requests for which he also paid money. It is doubtful he will “give” that away freely to trolls who have ill intent.

      I have no inside track on his plans and am only reading between the lines based on my personal relationship with him.

      Has he ever been threatened? Probably and in more ways than one, including financial ones. It’s the price of freedom of expression and the search for truth here in America but I have serious doubts that Sundance could ever be blackmailed or would let anyone shut him down.

      Not too many folks would open criticize O’Mara on the level he has done without solid proof of what he claims. Notice that he does sometimes express an opinion but he clarifies it when he does so.

      Whether you believe it is “right” for him to take on and expose O’Mara is also an opinion and we all have one one of those. I do believe he has personally spent a lot of time in the courthouse arena over there to dig up what he has. He has talked with a lot of folks. He must have a reason for doing this, maybe unknown to us yet. There is something going on there that none of us know and I will wait until it all comes out.

      • Jordan, thank you so much for your kind welcome and the information. I don’t remember Sundance leaving any biographical information on his site. Do you know anything about him that you can share here? I will come right out and say I felt uncomfortable posting on The CTH. He set up an emotional, parochial political-religious atmosphere which I think conflicts, to some extent, with critical evidence evaluation.

        • Ricky Jimenez

          With the exception of a few private emails, I only know what he posts at the site. I have never seen a bio of Sundance but others have been quite critical if you want to search. No one is perfect but he at least appears to be honest to me although I know others disagree.

          At the end of the day. no other site has exposed as much truth as the CTH. Yes, he does have his secrets, keeps some things close to his vest and has a habit of “teasing’ us but I think that is designed to inspire us to do further research on our own.

          A few there are masters at research and finding things. At least one travels to find things.

          • Now. I had a lot of problems with the start of this case. But now I always thought there was a timely recantation by Shellie. Also Omara. Not only that but thought that the jailhouse recordings should be H&W privileged because of the code they used.

            • doodahdaze

              Jeralyn has clearly explained why Shellie is not guilty of anything:



              I do not understand the current strategy and why this has not yet ended but would love to hear from nettles, Chip Bennett or any others who have an educated, informed opinion.

              If the purpose was to blackmail George into taking a plea, that is over.

              I also never heard any confirmed reports that the State EVER offered him a plea so that has left me wondering. Was that just more speculation or intimidation by the media? IDK.

                • It’s gotten a little harder to continue that game, imo, now with W8 having lied under oath. It will be interesting to see how long they continue this farce.

                  • Most people who I’ve talked with who know very little about this case, don’t think the Paypal thing was that big of a deal anyway. They think that, even assuming George and Shellie DID flat-out lie about it (which of course they didn’t), it’s not some shocking event. This guy and his wife know they have no other income for the foreseeable future, and so they keep a bunch of money hidden from the court so they don’t have to hand over every penny of it for bond payment? Wow… SHOCKING! What a horrible, horrible crime! A crime that proves you’re the most dishonest, lying human being to ever walk the face of the earth!

                    • The press will be asking the prosecutor about charges for W8 every time Shellie has court. They have set the standard, it must apply to all witnesses.

        • How about these headlines:

          State dismisses charges against George Zimmerman..Benjamin Crump charged with lying under oath, witness and evidence tampering. Federal officials investigating Angela Corey for prosecutorial misconduct.. Pam Bondi and Rick Scott resign over corruption scandal on same day. Al Sharpton enters same hospital as Jackson, claiming PTSD. Natalie Jackson mysteriously disappears. NBC settles lawsuit. Other suits filed by Zimmerman.

          Any surprises?

      • A few months ago Sundance was outed and his identity was revealed. This is something that I find to be abhorrent by those who did the outing.

        However, I think it has more to do with the attitude that has been developed by SD. He came too close to the case and he needed to back off in my opinion.

    • Hey Ricky, I don’t think Sundance is any less enthusiastic than he ever was. Quite the contrary. I think the reason for shutting down the daily thread was to FOCUS, and to prepare for what’s to come. The Treehouse is a LONG way from being done with this case. In many ways, I think it’s just now really about to begin.

      • Agreed, jello. It was time for the thread to become more focused on the facts and issue. We were all pussyfooting around and becoming distracted. It was becoming a social arena. Nothing wrong with that but it was not suiting his original purpose.

      • did you ever notice that some people just can’t stand success and when it comes, they will do anything and everything to destroy it? it is almost as though they feel that they don’t deserve it.

        • I read the rumors and think this did not happen but I guess it is possible.

          “O’Mara has taken notice, and even emailed a frequent reader of the site seeking a “chat session” with the bloggers.”

          I do know that he would never communicate directly with O’Mara even if O’Mara knocked on his door at home. Lot more to that than I wish to say.

          I also have serious doubts about Sundance’s identity as detailed in the article. Do you really believe he is only 46? Does he sound like a store manager to me?

          I am 66 and when I think about some of my exchanges with him, I would not be surprised if he is not at least 60. He also has a fairly sophisticated knowledge of our older military technology and weapons systems. Much of it sounds like he got that from “hands on” experience. He has some of my life experiences but I am actually only guessing.

          IDK,… I did my own research about him long ago and came up empty. Clearly he has made a big effort to remain anonymous and I suspect there are valid reasons for that.

  19. Just thought I’d stop in and say hello, since I’ve been lurking on the daily Zimmerman posts since they started. I never really posted there, and I’d be lying if I said that the attitude of some of the admins wasn’t part of the reason why.

    The O’Mara criticism is part of it, but honestly, it had been like that for a long time. The two things that bugged me were the “Dee Dee” tweets and the “lean” issue.

    When sundance found that girl’s tweets and put them up as Dee Dee’s, I was never really 100% convinced. It seemed like he talked to a lot of girls, and any one of them could have been Dee Dee. I always felt like I was missing something that everybody else got, and everybody was just so sure of themselves there that I didn’t think it would do much good to suggest he might have the wrong girl. Which, apparently, he did.

    As far as the “lean” thing goes, I don’t know if anybody remembers it or not, but a couple of people pointed out that, while Trayvon could have bought the juice and Skittles to make lean, that wasn’t exactly smoking-gun evidence that he was going to. They got jumped all over by sundance. The fact is, though, they were right. Just because he could have made lean from Skittles and watermelon juice, and just because he had tried lean in the past, is hardly evidence that every single soft drink he ever purchased, from that day forward, was going to be used to make lean. I used to drink a lot of Jack & Cokes back in the day, but 9 times out of 10, if I bought a Coke, it was just to drink a Coke.

    It’s stuff like that that always kind of bugged me. But, having said all that, I think the main thing to remember is that it’s the internet, after all. You have to take people’s personalities into account, because they’re not professional journalists. Sundance is an incredibly stubborn person, but would you want him any other way? His stubbornness is why he’s still researching this whole thing, when even most people in the media have quietly given up on it. To my mind, he’s done a truly remarkable amount of research into it, and that takes a pretty remarkable guy.

    And honestly, I can understand him getting an ego about it. Could you imagine what it’s like to be just some regular guy, getting scoops the professional media can’t or won’t? I’m sure it’s a pretty heady feeling.

    So my hat’s off to him and the Treehouse in general. It’s still a great site, and I’m still going to miss the daily posts. I’ll definitely read Rumpole’s site, and keep checking in here. Diwataman is another guy who continually impresses me. I’m still stunned that he was able to figure out that Trayvon hung around outside the 7-11 after buying his Skittles and Arizona, before even any of the police or attorneys did. It really is pretty incredible what the internet allows us to do these days.

          • Yes, well, I gave it up a long time ago. I gave it up roughly the same time I first heard about it, as a matter of fact. That was sort of my point. It was a pointless thing to argue about in the first place, because whether he was buying stuff to make lean or not, it really doesn’t change the facts as to whether or not it was self-defense. So why argue about it? Why split the ranks by jumping on people who disagree over an issue that is basically irrelevant to the case anyway?

            Just my opinion, though. You are free to have yours as well.

            • The lean thing was ONE thing to demonstrate that Trayvon was not the sweet lil boy everyone saw in the media photos. Whether he was going to make lean or not nobody knows, but it did demonstrate that HE KNEW about lean, or a really big coincidence, Lean, the same thing that Lil Wayne overdosed on and is in the hospital now. Would sweet lil boys that look 10 in a photo know about “lean”? Anyway, correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the medical examiner find something wrong (degeneration) of Trayvon’s brain or heart or something? I think discussion at the treehouse surrounding the lean was what other drugs he may have been taking. Bottomline the discussion went to his character more than anything else.

              • If I recall correctly, TM had a fatty liver, which is very unusual in a 17 year-old and could definitely indicate abuse of substances.

                • I also recall a tweet in which TM was asking (or maybe he was answering someone else’s question?) about substitutes for the codeine ingredient in “Drank” because anything containing codeine requires a prescription.

                • Yes, there was fatty liver which is highly unusual in a 17 year old but there was also traces of problem with the brain if I recall it correctly.

                  The fatty liver stood out to me because that can be caused by either one of two things: being obese or too much alcohol or some other substance abuse… paracetamol can damage the liver.

              • I understand that. Believe me, I do.

                The thing is, we already knew by that time that the media image of Trayvon was false. We knew that just from reading his tweets, which is where sundance found out about lean in the first place. Neither I nor anyone else was arguing with the fact that he knew about and had done lean. The question was, was he buying stuff to make it at the time? Sundance seemed pretty insistent that he was, and all people were doing was saying that he hadn’t proved that yet.

                And if the people at the Treehouse already knew that his media image was false, then there wasn’t any need to insist he was buying stuff for lean right then.

                But what about everybody else? What about the people who heard of the Treehouse from a friend or somewhere else, and decided to go check it out? What did they see? Well, they saw a bunch of people making accusations they couldn’t back up, is what they saw. Do you think that helped?

                I’ve always been a big believer in just sticking with the facts. The facts, as we knew them at the time and know even more now, back up Zimmerman’s story. That’s all we need. Speculation is fine sometimes, but when you start making statements you can’t prove, then you might end up being wrong, and that just makes you look bad. That’s all that I was trying to get at.

                  • Sure. Although, if he doesn’t, it still won’t prove whether or not he was planning on making it once he got back to the house. It’ll just be speculation. Speculation that really doesn’t change anything about whether or not it was self-defense.

                    To be honest, I’m more interested in the blunt wrapper he got from the Three Stooges. Because where did it go? Did he honestly smoke the whole thing, by himself, on the way back to the house? Or did he go somewhere else?

                    I’m with WaltherPPK on this one, If we had the ping logs, we’d know.

                    • “Speculation that really doesn’t change anything about whether or not it was self-defense.”

                      The only way that TM possibly having ingredients to make leans becomes relevant is how it my have impacted his behavior when he and GZ met up that night. Toxicology reports would be helpful in knowing what was in his system and an understanding of the effects on behavior. Just having those ingredients on him that night right before the incident in of itself doesn’t prove that.

                      With that that being said, if that is allowed in about TM, then the prescription drugs that GZ was on become relevant with regard to what effects it could have had on his behavior that night as well. If the defense attempts to get TM’s alleged drug use admitted as evidence, I would wager a bet that prosecutors will attempt the same regarding GZ’s use of prescription drugs such as his reported use of Temazepam. Some of the side effects of this drug is anxiety and aggression.

                      I think from a legal standpoint as spectators in this case, we have lost sight of the fact that there is evidence and then there is admissible evidence: definition from

                      ” admissible evidence n. evidence which the trial judge finds is useful in helping the trier of fact (a jury if there is a jury, otherwise the judge), and which cannot be objected to on the basis that it is irrelevant, immaterial, or violates the rules against hearsay and other objections. Sometimes the evidence which a person tries to introduce has little relevant value (usually called probative value) in determining some fact, or prejudice from the jury’s shock at gory details may outweigh that probative value. In criminal cases the courts tend to be more restrictive on letting the jury hear such details for fear they will result in “undue prejudice.” Thus, the jury may only hear a sanitized version of the facts in prosecutions involving violence.”

                      So much of the speculation that has been done on this case, while very interesting, will probably have no relevance in the legal scheme of things.

              • there was degeneration in the brain and the liver. I found that very strange at the time. It was an indication of something being very wrong for someone who had just turned 17.

                In liver disease one has fatty deposits and this showed up in Trayvon’s autopsy. This can be due to either eating foods with too much fats or it can be alchohol induced.

                Since one of the ingredients of Lean is cough syrup one can point to the possible alcoholic content of the coup syrup as a possible cause of liver damage.

                Other probable cause include the use of drugs.

                It is worth noting that obese people also tend to have a fatty liver.

            • the point about “Lean” is that it makes people very aggressive. As far as i am concerned it remains a valid point as to whether Trayvon had purchased ingredients to make Lean when he returned to the unit where he was staying.

              The other point is that Lean plus pot makes people very aggressive which might explain the evident behaviour issues.

              It is relevant as far as I am concerned.

            • HammerHead says: “I used to drink a lot of Jack & “Cokes back in the day, but 9 times out of 10, if I bought a Coke, it was just to drink a Coke.”

              Just out of curiosity, did you ever walk 2 miles (round trip) on a cold rainy night just to get a coke? It would tell a lot about your character and determination.

              • Wouldn’t that depend on if he had the Jack at home? Maybe he would, I know I would.

                So, that brings us back to would he walk to the 7-11 to get 2/3 of the ingredients of lean if he had the couch syrup at home? Probably.

                • W8 gave us several different reasons why Tray went to the store in her March 19th interview. She said he went b/c his little brother wanted something from there. She said he went there because there was no food or drink in the house and she said he went there b/c he got caught in the rain so he went into the store.

                  It is possible that Tray was out and about and ducked into the store when it started raining? We really don’t know for sure, if he left the house for the purpose of picking up those 2 items. The whole thing may be a lie.

                  See transcript of the call here:

                  • The problems I have with DD and what she said are so many, that I can’t list them all here. But suffice it to say that I don’t believe DD exists in the first place. She, for me, is a tail that was made to wag a dog. I have yet to see any proof that she was the one that Trayvon talked to that night, much less the fact that he even talked to any one. I make no bones about the fact that I’ve ranted about this for a few months now. And now, as more time passes, it seems even more less likely that she talked to him. 16 vs 18, now 19. Hospital or not. Simply mobile vs T-mobile, etc.

                    No one seems to know when he left for the store. Was Stephen still there and drove him? Chad didn’t have a clue. He thought he left at around 8:30 and told Tracy (via Tracy’s 911 call) and his father (via video of his father relaying that) that. Personally, I don’t see Trayvon referring to the son of his father’s mistress as his “little brother”. That definitely was Crump’s idea. You can hear it in DD1’s reaction and odd pause which followed after Crump said that in the beginning of ABC’s recent tape. Plus, I doubt that he even liked him. He’s an extension of the woman who was taking his time spent with his father away from him.

                    I agree with your last statement completely.

                    • If you are referring to the word “can’t” vs “couldn’t”, I wouldn’t put much stock in it. In the same sentence he said, “had”. The man just can’t speak English. His grammar, use of tense, and just a plain inability to speak properly, just makes you want to shake your and wonder how he passed college, much less law school.

                  • Nettles, I don’t believe anything that winess 8 said-. imo, she has zero credibility. Whatever TM’s reason for being out that night, we have to look at the evidence found at the site- a bag of skittles and a can of Arizona brand watermelon juice- both ingredients for “Lean” aka “purple drank”. I had never heard of “lean” nor “purple drank” before seeing it on CTH. Hopefully the 3 stooges that D-man found will shed some more light on what TM was doing on that cold rainy night before the basket ball game even started. We don’t even know for sure if TM was at Brandi’s house before he was seen on 7-11 cameras. Cell phone records & pings would have revealed a lot, etc etc. After all is said and done, what really matters is what happened in those seconds when the screams were heard and a shot was fired…

    • DMan is one of a kind.. well organized, has great logic and knows how to present issues in an orderly time relevant manner.

      I know for a fact that the defense uses his material and have received personal thanks from O’Mara for sending him stuff found on his blog.

      Sundance relies on him but there are other researchers at CTH , at least one of whom actually travels to research issues.

      Sundance may be far from perfect but he is a determined man on a well defined mission. Nothing will stop him and he’s not averse to stepping on toes in the process.

      • Very true. I should have spent more time on my point that, whatever sundance’s eccentricities, it’s just sundance being sundance. He’s done a great job overall, and like I said, people wouldn’t really want him to be any other way.

        So no, I wasn’t trying to bash the Treehouse. I came here and saw a bunch of people talking about their experiences being banned or other bad experiences they had there, and I just wanted to write something where the main point was supposed to be that, while things could and did get a little edgy there from time to time, overall it has been a great resource. I wouldn’t have kept reading it all this time if it hadn’t been.

        • See… the people here who know me, know that I’m one of the few lefties at the Treehouse. And I admitted that right from my first day there. Despite that, I was welcomed with open arms, and the longer I’ve been there, the more I’ve gotten to like many of the people there, and… they seem to like ME. We’re talking about a place specifically named The Conservative Treehouse, and yet a guy like me is allowed to hang out there. Yes, I know we’re all on the same mission where the GZ case is concerned, but I’ve also occasionally talked about other issues with them. And yet we get along fine. I’m still amazed and delighted by that… because it’s not something you would really expect to find on a site that’s explicitly to one end or the other of the political spectrum. So yeah… I have lots of respect for Sundance and others there, even when I don’t agree with them.

            • Heh. 😉 I kinda doubt that. Probably quite a big libertarian streak, but you’d be hard-pressed to find something that most people would label “conservative”. I wouldn’t be embarrassed or ashamed to admit it if it was true, I just don’t think it is. Maybe I’m gonna have to spell out my specific views on a bunch of specific issues some day. And then you guys can can take a poll to decide what exactly I am. 😉 Who knows… maybe I’ve been labeling myself wrong all this time. Oh, here, maybe this will help: I don’t agree with him on everything, but one of the very few major politicians in this country who I like, respect, and generally trust, is Bernie Sanders. ( — ducking! — )

        • HammerHead: for what it’s worth, I understand what you’re saying, both about the CTH and whether TM was indulging in Purple Drank on the night he died. And I agree it’s not beneficial to mention Drank and Trayvon as though it’s a FACT he had done some that night or was planning to. We don’t know, because the full tox report is being held back for reasons no one has bothered to explain. If the full tox report had been released and showed TM was not under the influence of anything other than pot, it’s likely the subject of Drank would have faded into the background, except as evidence that Trayvon — by his own words — was involved in a lifestyle in direct contrast to the narrative the Scheme Team is promoting. A truly “innocent” 17 year-old, who still looked as he did at age 12, who dreamed of being an astronaut and “majored in cheerfulness” is not a person you would expect to assault someone. However, that is not an accurate depiction of the person who assaulted Zimmerman. The more accurate picture of Trayvon is his self-styled No_Limit_Nigga persona, with the grill and tattoos, hands full of cash, giving the finger to the camera, and talking about dope and Drank and “ho’s” on social media. In my opinion, and I suspect in the opinion of most people who are honest about it, Trayvon’s personal expression of himself is someone much more likely to make an assault than the Scheme Team’s false version of Trayvon. And since they still haven’t backed off the tale of the innocent little kid skipping to the store for a cold drink and candy for his “brother” during halftime of a game that hadn’t started yet, what Trayvon was actually doing that night — including the possibility he was purchasing ingredients to whip up a batch of Purple Drank — is important. The Scheme Team’s primary game is to depict GZ as the worst type of “cracka” — an armed racist cop-wannabe with such hatred for young black males that he pursues them through neighborhoods and guns them down in cold blood on the street. In my view, getting to the reality of who these two individuals are is of utmost importance … though I admit I don’t know how much of it will make it into the courtroom.

          • I’m wondering if the defense had it’s own toxicology testing done. If I’m not mistaken, the short report that seemed to be pasted onto the autopsy report appeared to have been testing done by some local testing source. It only showed that TM had some level of pot in his system. There was a reference somewhere in the autopsy report where it claimed that samples of hair, tissue, urine and blood was sent off to a particular lab for testing. No report has ever been released by that lab. The county had contracted with a particular lab, after putting out bids, and the lab had the usual requirement for particular testing, which did not involve anything other than the normal, which did not include additional testing for designer drugs, specific chemicals in the samples etc. The county was working according to the budget put before them for these types of testing. I believe I read that the budget was somewhere in the area of $200,000. which is very small if you are looking at designer drugs like bath salts for example. Their budget did not include any out of the ordinary testing, as each test gets very expensive. Looking for codein in the TM samples would have been an additional charge, and at high dollars. I suspect that any specific testing was not done.

            From what I’ve read on the drug lab sites, they don’t, and can’t look for something like “purple drank” they would look for the chemical compounds that would be contained in codein, skittles and juice in order to detect the existence of those chemicals. Perhaps someone in the pharmacology or whatever field can speak to that issue.

            Because each individual test is very expensive, I wonder if the defense used the dollars to require those tests be done? Each lab retains whatever samples are unused for a certain period of time. I would think that this case would have warranted the lab to retain any unused samples from TM because of it’s high profile status.

            I wonder if the defense may have in fact had any additional testing done. I would hpe that if the defense has any additional information about the tox report that it would be released along with the defense discovery. Does that make sense? The defense may be sitting on a gold mine with the tox reports.

            • BTW, wasn’t someone with a name something like “DedicatedDad” that did the whole purple drank posts on the CTH? I’m sure those posts are in the archives over there if someone wants to check.

            • Pinecone: I’m hoping the defense is sitting on all kinds of evidence, including perhaps their own tox reports. What I don’t understand is their reluctance to let at least some of that information out into the “sunshine.” Maybe it’s an excellent defense strategy not to — I’m certainly not an attorney. But since we appear to be going to trial and there will be a jury, I would think there would be some effort on the part of O’Mara and West to float information into the public arena that is contrary to the Scheme Team narrative. That only seems smart to me. That’s frankly why O’Mara makes me nervous — he seems at times more interested in not blaming the dead victim than in defending his innocent client. I fear if he’s sitting on a gold mine of negative evidence about TM, he’s reluctant to release it for that reason.

              • I think we just have to trust O’Mara and West to do what is best for their client. The tox report is something for experts to study before anything is released to be ripped apart by bloggers. We don’t even know yet who the expert witnesses are.

                • Except that in Florida, there are sunshine laws. I suspect the reason we haven’t seen anything yet that paints Trayvon in a more realistic light is not because no experts have looked at the evidence, but because no one has the guts to release it. The state/scheme team certainly has no interest, nor does the complicit media. Which leaves the defense team. And I’m uncomfortable that they, too, could be protecting TM’s “reputation” while GZ continues to be savaged in the public realm. I’m not rabidly anti-O’Mara, by the way. But I’m not comfortable with his approach, either. Here’s hoping he’s coming out with guns blazing any minute now.

                  • I recall asking about the toxicology report a long time ago and getting an answer back from a staff member at the law firm that left me with the impression a full test was never ordered. I got the impression the defense would have to get one done. I could be wrong, it was quite some time ago but judging from what the State didn’t look into in this case, it wouldn’t surprise me.

                    • To: janc1955 and Nettles:

                      Would you not both agree that MOM has entirely too much “respect” for Trayvon’s family? I have personally heard too many apologies and it makes George look like he contributed to the death of a productive citizen in society. It is the ONE thing I hate.

                      He has already said he will not reveal what he finds unless it is absolutely necessary (to paraphrase). What does that mean?

                      The State and Scheme team have never stopped making George out to be a dangerous criminal with a violent past including child and sexual abuser.

                      I say fight fire with fire in this case. NO ONE has ever apologized to George or for anything they have said about him. NEVER.. not even a feeble attempt.

                    • I agree. Enough apologies have been made. The Martin/Fulton family have no qualms about scorching George Zimmerman. He has to stop acting like he did something wrong and fight. His life matters too and it’s time the Martin/Fulton family acknowledge that fact. I have seen some of the spunk in Robert Jr. of late….and I like it.

                    • Nettles18

                      You have refreshed my faulty memory. I do now recall that but not sure where I read it. If you have a link about it, I will use it as reference point and ask O’Mara. Maybe all I will have to do is ask if the report is true or not?

                    • I looked it up and can’t find it in my messages. It could have been shared by someone else who emailed the team. I know I’ve thought for a long time the defense hinted that no full tox. report was ordered. If one was to be ordered, it would have to be done and paid for by the defense.

                    • On page 130 of the May Discovery Dump, the ME report says about toxicology reports to “See separate report from NMS Laboratories. This is their blogsite:


                      As to what they were asked to test for, or what the results were, your guess is as good as mine. I do notice mention on their site about testing for “designer drugs”.

              • janc- I’m really suspicious of the state because they never released the full tox report. If it proved that TM didn’t have anything bad in his system, I would think they would have wanted to release that report immediately, or would have at least found some way to leak the info. If the defense has some really damning info, with their own completed tox results, if they in fact did have further testing done, it would be my opinion to keep those results close to their chest, if for no other reason than for possible shock value before a jury. I have no clue about what may have been in TM’s system at his time of death, but, suppose there was something like bath salts for an example, or something that causes one to become aggressive, wouldn’t that be similar to an ace in the hole for the defense? MOM keeps talking about GZ being acquitted as though he has something so damning against TM that he is feeling very confident with his prediction.

                Don’t get me wrong, I think MOM has made some pretty bad mistakes from the get go, but, the state has been racking up really serious mistakes all along as well, DeeDee lying being the latest. I too wish he would get the heck off the I pity the Martin’s routine. He would be much better off saying nothing. Having said that, and as far as the release of evidence of info goes, I am sitting squarely wiith what Mike McDaniels had said. There could in fact be much much more going on between the state and O’Mara sharing evidence, O’Mara keeping his cards close to his chest to not tip his hand to the state, and some things we just will never know. I am not sitting in the camp that MOM is perfect, or perhaps not even great, but, as I said above if MOM or West can slam the jurors so to speak with shock evidence, that will go a very long way with GZ being acquitted. If he released everything just to feed the curious, he may lose some levergae. That’s just how I think about the whole thing. I’m just as curious as the next but I want GZ freed before my curiosity fed.

              • When I have sent emails to MOM, he always replies with a thank you. His normal response to questions about evidence is that they are “working on it.

                He was once specific enough about the cell phone to say a lab had been examining it for 15 days and they should have the results back from the lab soon and that happened.

                I will add that I always try to send him something that he might not know. What I send is carefully worded into the question

                He likes stuff from the DMan’s well-researched library, particularly if supported by links and reliable sources.

                All that aside, I do believe we will soon see some bombshell facts from them. I also think SD might know that and it could have influenced his decision to shut down wild speculation. Just a guess////

                If you know something the defense needs, then send it to them. Notice he uses an IPad.

                Sent from my iPad
                Mark M. O’Mara
                O’Mara Law Group
                1416 East Concord Street
                Orlando, Florida 32803
                407-898-5151 office
                407-898-2468 fax

            • You put a lot of time into this post so I dare not dispute any of it. Thank you.

              Questions: Doesn’t the state have virtually unlimited money for this?

              Shouldn’t they be required to do the test and share it with the defense?

              Some companies, looking for exposure, do this at no charge. I am sure I have read of that before, especially those using new technology.

              Isn’t it also possible that the defense already has the results?

              Someone I know at another board claims that the defense has lots of stuff never yet revealed. I believe her.

              • “Doesn’t the state have virtually unlimited money for this?”

                I’m sure they do. From my understanding from the state’s discovery, the SPD had the samples sent off to the national lab that the county had contracted with. Wasn’t Serino the go-to person so to speak with the medical examiner? I think he may have been the one to order whatever tests were done. Not sure about that, but that full report was never released. Just thinking here, would the state want to do any further testing if it may harm their case?

                “Shouldn’t they be required to do the test and share it with the defense?”

                I don’t know what testing the county, who paid for the initial testing would require. Would they ask for testing on the so called designer drugs? I don’t know. I have read that each test is very expensive, and when you start looking for all kinds of chemicals or substances I would think that could break the bank. It’s fairly new technology. Remember the tx reports that came back for Whitney Huston? She had taken over the counter cough or cold medicine, and the report showed whatever chemical compound was in that medicine, not the brand. The defense may very well have the full tox report, I don’t know. Suppose the dense had reason to believe there may have been other substances in TM’s samples and they had the testing done. Suppose they have enhanced reports beyond what the SPD had done and it is not good?

                “Some companies, looking for exposure, do this at no charge. I am sure I have read of that before, especially those using new technology.”

                I have no knowledge about that.

                “Isn’t it also possible that the defense already has the results?”

                Do you mean the results from the state? or the results from any testing they may have had done? I would think they would have the results from any state tox labs, but I have no proof of that. Nothing has ever been released. I’ve read that labs say it can take up to 6 weeks to get results back. Both sides would have had the results from the labs long ago if they both requested testing.

                • Minpin,
                  “Shouldn’t they be required to do the test and share it with the defense?”

                  No, they don’t have no obligation to do any tests other than the ones normally done. It is up to the Defense to have does tests done at their expense. I recall a press conference where MOM said that he needed to get some DNA and other extra Forensic test done, I believe he was asking for donations at the time.
                  The second reason that there may not be any testing is that it is exculpatory to GZ, so as something John Galt has said to us, before, “the prosecution can’t turn over what it does not have”, and MOM may feel that it is not necessary or that the Judge would ruled them inadmissible for a variety of reasons.

                    • If you are asking if the Defense may have some discovery not yet disclosed? The answer is yes, the Defense has not released their reciprocal discovery yet, they usually wait until the prosecution finishes to release their own discovery.
                      Could the Defense have the results of the full Tox report and they have not released it? I doubted, because if they have it was done by the prosecution and it would serve no purpose for the prosecution to try to keep it hidden if they know that the Defense will, ultimately. I think what we have seen disclosed is the full tox, as ordered by the SPD.

                  • Thanks bori that’s what I kinda thought. Do you remember from the autopsy report where Serino was the one that was the contact for the medical examiner? Would Serino be the one to order any testing? Remember there was a name of a toxicology lab listed on one of the autopsy report pages? I would think that only the normal tests would have been done, unless there was some reason to believe that more testing was needed, like if you ate someone’s face for example. LOL Completely agree that the state wouldn’t want any further testing as it may have harmed their case, and may have been something just a little to positive for GZ’s self defense claim. I really hope the defense had the bucks to order additional tests.

              • Lot’s of stuff. They seem confident. The next hearing should be more interesting. The state is gonna have to start coughing stuff up. Especially after the DD, Tracy, Sabrina, depo’s. Being questioned under oath is different than going on Dr. Phil, or TV. It should open up new avenue’s. One question to me is how does Martin…’lose”.. George, between the T in the sidewalk and Brandy’s house? That is what DD say’s. Maybe some of the stuff is under wraps because of the juvenile laws. It was surprising when the GZ statements were released. Nobody had it exactly right before then.

    • The evidence for the lean is very strong. Trayvon actually mentioned lean on his facebook page and I have no problem with that since he had two of the ingredients of lean on his person when he was killed.

    • I, for one, truly appreciated the discussion concerning Lean, Syrzzup, etc. I had no idea about any of these things and at 66, I think I could have been excused for my ignorance. However, the discussion led me to do additional research and through that I have educated more than a few similarly uninformed folks here in my small NE Florida city. And, I further introduced the topic to my family for their understanding of that culture and their enlightenment has been amazing. I believe that there is a positive side with the more folks being made aware of these abominations in the “rapper” world. BTW, although I an a conservative, my family is predominately hard core left.

      That Trayvon purchased two of the ingredients in Lean, IMO, is not pertinent to the self defense case/encounter directly. However, it surly does provide an indicator of the behavior and legacy of Trayvon. Just like the school records, the social media information and the various other tidbits which have come to light, it is a significant part of who Trayvon had become after his familial abandonment.

      • Exactly, and to anyone sitting home fed the initial stories, not keeping up with the case, and awaits viewing of the trial, they will learn quickly that Trayvon wasn’t the sweet lil angelic boy that the MEDIA and scheme team has made him out to be. For the vast majority of ppl not watching developments, they are still under the impression he was just a lil angel picking up snacks for his lil brother and was shot for wearing a hoodie and being black. This IS STILL the perceived narative for the vast majority out there. The LEAN is just on the laundry list to suggest otherwise.

        • with one exception … Chad was not his little brother at all.

          Perhaps the word “bro” was used but the reality is, that Chad was no relation.

      • the information about Lean when it came from Dedicated Dad was an absolute eye opener for me. I had no idea that kids could be that stupid and to use something like that to get a high…. ugh stupid, stupid, stupid.

  20. HammerHead: “But what about everybody else? What about the people who heard of the Treehouse from a friend or somewhere else, and decided to go check it out? What did they see? Well, they saw a bunch of people making accusations they couldn’t back up, is what they saw. Do you think that helped?”

    further down you talk about facts. Well, #1, regarding this subject we ascertained that it was not Arizona Ice Tea. Ppl in the media were still reporting Ice Tea. They still are today! Fact is that it wasn’t Ice Tea. It was Arizona Watermelon Juice. I’m sure if it was Ice Tea, the subject of Lean would have never come up. But because two components for making lean were bought … sure you can speculate, but anyone with a brain knows that until it’s proven it is not a fact. That does not mean ppl can’t talk about it. Do you believe everything in that Probable Cause Affidavit is fact? Right now the Affidavit MAY not be factual because it relies on testimony of a witness who the State has already admitted … lied. I never got the impression from Sundance that we had to buy into it hook, line and sinker. Somebody probably called him and said … hey, did ya know that Arizona Watermelon Juice and Skittles when combined with codine makes Lean, a very popular drug amongst black ppl?

    • OK, well, I have the feeling that this is getting us precisely nowhere.

      Sure people can speculate. Go for it. Speculate all you want. It’s when people start treating their speculations as facts that have been proven that we have a problem. It’s even more of a problem when, as I said in my original post, anyone who doubted those speculations got shouted down.

      Like I said, it just doesn’t look good when you go around acting like it’s a proven fact he was buying stuff to make lean when you can’t prove anything.

      Everyone talks about how he bought two of the three ingredients to make lean, which is true, in a sense. But those “two ingredients” aren’t specific at all. You just need a soft drink to dilute it so you don’t kill yourself, and candy to make it sweeter. That’s it. There’s no reason you couldn’t make it with sweet tea, if that’s your favorite drink. I’m sure someone’s done it, and I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if there was some impenetrable bit of slang to describe it. It’s usually made with Sprite and Jolly Ranchers, but any sweet drink and candy will work. You could make it with Orange Crush and Lemonheads. You could make it with Big Red and Gummi Bears. You could make it with Gatorade and candy corn, if that’s your thing. You can find any number of recipes for lean on the internet, for the same reason that you can find any number of recipes for alcoholic drinks. Because you can mix it with anything. So, basically, if this kid walked out of the store with any soft drink and any non-chocolate candy, it could be used to make lean. Or the kid could just like soft drinks, like just about everyone. And he likes Lil Wayne. Well, him and about ten million other teenagers. It’s a pretty thin branch to hang suspicion on.

      No, I don’t believe that everything in the Probable Cause Affidavit is a fact. A lot of it is already known to be false, particularly the parts about Trayvon attempting to return home. And now, if they don’t use Dee Dee, the prosecution can’t even CLAIM it knows what Trayvon was doing or where he was going, and can’t even CLAIM to have evidence that George continued to follow him after hanging up the phone. So yeah, I think that’s pretty serious for the prosecution. Doesn’t look too good when they speculated about what was going on if they couldn’t prove it.

      Anyway, the way I remember sundance finding out about lean was that he read some comment on Twitter or facebook about Trayvon wanting to get some codeine and talking about lean, and then Googled it. Like I said, by the time lean even entered into the discussion, it was already a well-known fact that Trayvon wasn’t the angelic kid the media made him out to be. The fact that he was talking about lean and asking if he could find codeine is already evidence enough that he knew about it and had done it.

      If I remember correctly, though, the comments were from like a year before. So who knows? Was he a regular lean user? It’s quite possible. His liver was pretty messed up. Then again, from what i understand, your liver can get pretty messed up from just doing it a few times. So I don’t know. Hopefully, the tox screen will come out someday and we’ll know for sure.

      We do know that his life had gotten pretty messed up over the past year or two. Was he high on something most of the time? I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. Can I prove it? Nope. Does it ultimately matter, in the case of the State Of Florida vs. George Zimmerman? Not really. It means the Scheme Team was lying to everyone, but we already knew that.

      Do I feel like arguing about it anymore? Nope. I don’t see much point in continuing to argue with people who I basically agree with. If I feel like arguing with people, I log on to the Huffington Post and start messing with Trayvonites.

      • It was not Arizona Iced Tea that was purchased. It was Watermelon Juice and yes it makes a difference. It is more airtight that he was buying the ingredients to make Lean which is something he had admitted to using in the past.

        The person who made the observation in the first place had experience in the matter and knew about Lean.

        • “It was not Arizona Iced Tea that was purchased. It was Watermelon Juice and yes it makes a difference.”

          Yes, we know. Except, you’re forgetting that, in the original police report, the can was tagged as “Arizona Tea Can”. I’m going to go ahead and guess that that’s where the original misconception came from. Do you think the Sanford police were in on the conspiracy? Because, if they were, they would not only have to be “in on” the conspiracy, they would have to have been the ones to actually START it.

          Why do people keep saying it? Well, probably for the same reason they keep saying that George chased Trayvon, and that he was on the phone with 911, and everything else. Because that’s what they were told at the beginning, and have never changed their minds about anything.

          “The person who made the observation in the first place had experience in the matter and knew about Lean.”

          If you say so, but the first people I saw who made the observation were sundance and Dedicated Dad, both of whom admitted to being surprised about the whole thing. If you can find someone who mentioned it before, fine, but even then, you’re still talking about some random, anonymous person on the internet who CLAIMS to be “in the know”. There’s no shortage of those out there, if you know what I mean.

          “It is more airtight that he was buying the ingredients to make Lean”

          Well, if you had bothered to look anything up for yourself, rather than just take their word for it, you would know that the “ingredients to make Lean” are, generally speaking, Sprite and Jolly Ranchers. Go ahead. Look up “lean recipe” or whatever combination you want. There are indeed a couple of mentions of Skittles, that’s true. But there are even more references to making it without any candy at all.

          Sprite is, far and away, the #1 “ingredient” for making lean. From what I’ve seen, Mountain Dew is the second. After that, you get “whatever you want”. I’ve seen several references to Gatorade, a few to Coca-Cola, a few to orange soda, and a couple even to A & W Cream Soda. You have to search long and hard to find any reference to a juice drink of any kind, let alone specifically Arizona Watermelon Juice.

          What Dedicated Dad did was find ONE kid on YouTube who made it with Arizona watermelon juice (and even HE made it with watermelon Jolly Ranchers) out of the many possible ways you COULD make it, and all of a sudden, watermelon juice and Skittles are THE ingredients for lean!

          Except, wait. Skittles aren’t Jolly Ranchers. Go ahead and look on Google. Find anyone who refers to making lean with watermelon juice and Skittles before May of last year. I found one page, and the same page mentioned making it with root beer, Big Red, Cherry Sprite, Mountain Dew Baja Blast from Taco Bell, and I lost track of what all else (to say nothing of the almost constant references to Sprite). The Skittles were mentioned by a completely different person than the one who said Arizona watermelon juice.

          So, as far as we know, nobody has EVER made lean with Arizona watermelon juice and Skittles before the Treehouse mentioned it. But somehow, Skittles and Arizona watermelon juice are “the ingredients for lean”.

          Except, one of those ingredients, the watermelon juice, could be replaced by ANY sugary soft drink. And honestly? When was the last time you ever saw ANY teenager walk out of a convenience store WITHOUT a sugary drink of some kind? It doesn’t happen very often. Go hang around outside any convenience store in America (I don’t know about Australia), and you’ll see dozens of kids walking out every hour, and nearly all of them will have soft drinks. Or, the “ingredients to make lean”, as you like to call them.

          “which is something he had admitted to using in the past.”

          Yes, he mentioned it in one exchange on facebook. From over a year before the shooting. And in that exchange, he explicitly says that he can’t find the stuff to make it. He also says that he’s going to stop smoking weed, which he obviously didn’t do.

          And then what? Then nothing. He never mentions it again, as far as anyone can tell. He’s on twitter all the time, and he talks about weed all the time, so it’s not like he’s afraid he’s going to get caught. So why doesn’t he ever mention lean again?

          Look. This is just a case of groupthink. They happen all the time on the internet. It’s nothing to get too worked up or defensive about. They can just get a little annoying to non-members of the group, that’s all.

          • Hammerhead, I think that there were members of Sanford police who were involved in the conspiracy. They have already been named.

            Yes I remember seeing those reports where it was identified as Arizona Iced Tea but the can at the scene was clearly Watermelon Juice.

            Also, there were a number of discrepancies in those police reports where someone got various facts wrong. The reports appear to have been a re-write after the whole thing blew up but certainly by the time the body was sent for autopsy.

            Yes, it was Dedicated Dad who made the observation, and it was Dedicated Dad who discovered the comment on the Facebook Page as well as discovering that it was Arizona Watermelon Juice drink.

            BTW we now have Arizona Ice Tea here in Australia but the drink comes in small bottles, not in a can. (I like the varieties that I have tasted especially the blueberry)

            • “Hammerhead, I think that there were members of Sanford police who were involved in the conspiracy. They have already been named.”

              OK. And would you mind telling me what the POINT of that conspiracy would be?

              Supposedly, there was a conspiracy to lie about the watermelon juice being iced tea, because supposedly, if the world knew that he was buying watermelon juice and Skittles, everyone would know he was a lean user.

              Except. In the real world, nobody WOULD have figured that out, because in the real world, almost nobody HAS made lean with watermelon juice. And as far as anyone can tell, nobody has EVER made it with both Skittles AND watermelon juice. So how exactly was this supposed to be some big signal to the drug-using community that had to be kept quiet?

              “Yes I remember seeing those reports where it was identified as Arizona Iced Tea but the can at the scene was clearly Watermelon Juice.”

              Right. But you know that that’s the kind of thing cops really don’t care much about when they enter stuff into evidence, right? If there’s no reason to believe it really IS evidence, they’re not too careful. Besides, if it does matter, it’s still there in an evidence locker to check. And honestly, in America, “Arizona” typically means iced tea. Most people don’t even know they make juice. So he probably just saw that it was “Arizona”, called it tea, and put it in a locker.

              Not everything is a conspiracy, you know.

              “Yes, it was Dedicated Dad who made the observation, and it was Dedicated Dad who discovered the comment on the Facebook Page as well as discovering that it was Arizona Watermelon Juice drink.”

              The facebook page was discovered by the people at Wagist. And he didn’t have any experience with lean. He looked it up to see what they were talking about, and was really surprised by the whole thing.

              • the people to ask about the conspiracy are those who made the claims.

                I saw those documents where the police officers had put down incorrect information. Even something as small as Watermelon Juice instead of Iced Tea. It should have been written correctly as Watermelon Juice because that is what was at the scene.

              • Just forget about the whole “Lean” thing for now. I just wanna talk about “tea” vs “watermelon juice”. No I don’t think the cop who wrote “iced tea” in his report did so for any sinister reasons. It was probably just as you say… just didn’t pay that close attention, since it didn’t seem of much importance. So that’s no big deal in my opinion. What I think IS a big deal is that later on, certain members of the Scheme Team, including Dee Dee, kept right on calling it “tea”. In my opinion, this shows that they got their info from somewhere other than first-hand… I think they got it from the police report. But they pretend they got it from Dee Dee herself. But what a strange, strange coincidence that Dee Dee just happened to make exactly the same mistake as that police report did. Oh I know… Trayvon said, TO DEE DEE HERSELF, that it was “tea”. Even HE was confused. Right… so anyway, THAT’s what I see as important. Someone here has referred to this as a kind of “false tag” (I think that’s the term) that spies sometimes used. Of course this time it was purely accidental (by the cop who wrote the report), but I think if we follow the trail of the “false tag” of the “iced tea”, it might tell us something.

                • I’m not going back to one of the first state discovery dumps contained, but I believe it included the list of evidence as tagged that night. Did the evidence log indicate that the can was Arizona Iced Tea? I don’t remember. When the police were writing their reports, I have doubts that many would have remembered, or even paid attention to what the can was. I suspect that the police, writing their reports relied on the evidence log, and used iced tea rather than watermellon juice. Heck there were some that TM in shorts or jeans.

                  I could easily be wrong but, I believe that DeeDee told BDLR in her interview with him that Trayvon went to the store for “food and drink.” Did she say iced tea to BDLR? I don’t remember that.

                  The release of the police reports came much later than Crumps claims that TM was walking home with Tea and Skittles. Since Crump has been privy to the evidence, likely from the get go, did he not see the already produced pictures taken at the scene which clearly showed the Arizona Watermellon Juice can sitting on top of TM’s body which was covered with a yellow tarp?

                    • So Jello brings up a great point. Why does DD also call it Tea? Did she have access to the police report? Did Trayvon tell her he picked up a Tea? Unlikely b/c he didn’t pick up a Tea.

                    • Jello brought this up long, long ago. Like other “little’ things some folks have noticed along the way, it did get much attention at the time at the CTH.

                      I have never seen anyone explain it away or even make a logical attempt because I think it cannot be done.

                      I did something similar long ago and still have never received a reply except that SD once said it was a good point.

                      Where is the subpoena for DeeDee to appear before the grand jury? Whose name and address were on it?

                    • Yep, excellent point, because you can’t just file a subpoena addressed “Dee Dee” living at “Whoknowswhere”. Seems like this is a good question for Wolfinger. Actually, I have no doubt that if he’s legally allowed to, he’s helping out MOM/West however he can.

                    • Jello

                      It is why I always thought the defense knew who she was. Surely they got a copy early on to confirm the grand jur story and their intent to proceed.

                • Jello,
                  Actually in her first statement she calls it “Arizona” which is more normal and what my kids would say. ” I going to the store to get an Arizona”

                  Later she starts referring to it as Iced Tea, why did she change?

                  • Wouldn’t that be great if we find that out in more missing ABC tapes!

                    DD1: He went to the store for an Arizona drink and something to eat.

                    Crump: I didn’t get that. Can you repeat what you said, only more clearly? Now start where you said that he went to the store for an ice tea and Skittles. Start with ice tea and Skittles and continue.

                    DD1: Yeah, Trayvon went to the store and got ice tea and Skittles and after on the way home, it started to rain.

                    Crump: That’s when he put his hoodie on?

                    DD1: Yeah, it started to rain so he put his hoodie on. Then…

                    Yup, I can’t wait if there’s more!

                    • That’s correct! I remember the Ice tea comment she made because it stuck out for me. The “little brother”, I forgot, but that definitely goes to show coaching from the missing ABC tape to that section. There was NO question in my mind that when Crump said “little brother” near the beginning of that tape, she uttered a very distinctly uncomfortable, “yeah”. Then that pause before Crump spoke again. There was NO WAY Trayvon said, “little brother” to DD. But she said it in the tape section you referenced. For me, that’s another example of coaching.

                    • No, no coaching, prompting nothing to see, move along. It is any wonder this clip was not included, hiding evidence or obstructing justice. Hmm…

                    • I can’t remember… what’s the total length of the tape Crump coughed up?

                      (I’m in a stupid mood right now. Try to say (outloud) “tape Crump coughed” really fast. 😉 )

                    • Thanks. So like 13 minutes for Crump’s clips; and 5 minutes for the one Tara found. ABC’s whole tape is supposedly over 25 minutes. In other words there’s at least 7 minutes of ??? we haven’t heard… I think.

                    • I am betting that Matt has a lot more than that. Do not forget the set up time plus everything else he said happened. Every time I was ever interviewed in my media day, the prep time took longer than the interview.

                      How many times did he talk to her? Do you really think he did not record those conversations?

                      ABC may not even have all of it but Matt will claim protected work product. LOL. Hell, Nelson could even name him OC or some other crazy new legal term.

                    • You, bori and I are on the same page. We were privy, via Tara ,of 5 minutes of missing tape. MOM/West say they have 25 minutes. I wonder if they were just “rounding off” or there more NOT heard yet. The question is, will that be made public by MOM/West or ABC? Does Florida’s Sunshine Law force it to be made public now that it is part of the defense’s discovery? Isn’t that the way it works? IDK

                      I thing I do know is that this is getting really interesting now. It’s unfolding like a really good book.

                • ding ding ding… this is how the conspiracy got going!!!

                  Think about that for a moment because someone took wrong information and then compounded that wrong information….

                  A good example was in the autopsy report where the person repeated wrote stuff that was totally inaccurate and certainly was not part of the facts that would have been gleaned from Zimmerman himself.

                  • That autopsy report was a complete farce… I still SMH every time I read about it or something triggers my memory of it. I stated previously here and CTH (more times than I should have. 🙄 ) that every act in this tragedy is juxapositional. I firmly believe that West is gathering discovery that will permanently cement each to the other. Only when he has gathered all he set out to obtain will he reveal it to the rest of us.

                    He is getting all his little ducks in a row. 😀

    • There was a very specific post on the subject of lean from somebody in the know… he was another who was later banned….

      That person was the one who alerted us about “Lean” and the fact that Trayvon was found with two of the ingredients in his possession – the Watermelon juice and the skittles.

      Normally the Skittles are purple because what they normally make is purple Lean.

      Anyone who saw the posts from Trayvon’s Facebook page knows that he was into Lean. I think his old man was also into something like that…

      Here in Australia we can purchase Arizona Iced Tea. It is not in a can, but in a bottle. Up until last week I could only purchase 2 varieties but now a 3rd has become available. None of them are Watermelon flavour.

      • The only active ingredient in ‘Lean’ is the prescription cough syrup. The juice and candy are used for mixing (suspension) and flavor. Various beverages and candies, e.g., Sprite, Jolly Ranchers, can be used for those purposes. Watermelon juice is not one of the ‘traditional’ ingredients, by the way.

        Do I think he was headed home to make some ‘Lean’? Yes. Did he mention the concoction on social media? Apparently so. Will this play a significant role in the case? I seriously doubt it.

        • Analyst it might get a mention because it might be something that gives a clue as to why he acted in a paranoid fashion……

          Also he mentioned the Lean on his Facebook page so there is no doubt about it if you know what I mean.

          However, watermelon cocktail drink is what he purchased and he also purchased skittles. The story about them being for the other kid was just rubbish.

          But we shall see as this continues to unfold.

          It was a good pick up by the person who spotted that it was not Arizona Ice Tea

          • Good points, Aussie. I think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength, re: the ‘Lean’.

            I’ve enjoyed your comments (and several of the other regulars) at CTH, but was never comfortable commenting there for myriad reasons. I already enjoy the tone and timbre of diwataman’s abode. I hope the level of respect and thoughtful interaction continues…

        • Yeah, this may never become a part of the official arguments of this case. But if it does, I don’t think it’ll be simply to show that Trayvon used drugs, whether it be marijuana or “lean” or whatever. Oh, maybe to show that he wasn’t “little Trayvon” anymore, but certainly not to show he was a “bad kid”. Doing drugs doesn’t necessarily make you a “bad” person. In some cases it might prove that you’re a really “dumb” person, but… Anyway, of course not all drugs are created equal. There’s totally innocuous stuff like weed, and there’s really bad stuff like crack and PCP. But doing even the really bad stuff doesn’t automatically make you a “bad” person. But it CAN make you DO things that are really bad (and doing that often enough WILL make you an all-around “bad” person). So as far as Lean goes, I don’t think anyone is investigating that possibility just so they can say, “Look! Travyon was a bad guy because he used Lean!” That’s not the point at all. The point is, that Lean could have CAUSED Trayvon to do bad things, most importantly on that particular night. And it would not even have to be that he was currently high on it. It could just be that he was very much looking forward to GETTING high on it, but was interrupted by some “creepy white man” looking at him suspiciously. In my opinion, that’s the most likely reason why Trayvon attacked George: He was angry/frustrated that he had been interrupted form whatever he was in the process of doing. So if that’s the case, Trayvon’s use of Lean could be very relevant.

          • IF that whole “lean” subject comes up in court, I believe it is to ask WHY did he walked all that way in bad weather and ONLY buy watermelon drink and Skittles. Supposedly Brandi didn’t have anything else to eat, so WHY else would a young man, with probably a pretty good appetite (Have you ever known a 17 year old boy without one?) ONLY buy those two things and NOTHING else when he still had $40 in his pocket? That’s the question to ask.

            I guess one can argue that he went there for B&Ms. Still not what a 12 year old little boy would buy.

            • At seventeen, I’d have spent the better part of my forty bucks on junk food and drinks. And I’d start eating and drinking it immediately after leaving the store, i.e., on the way home.

            • I personally think it’s a lot more likely he went there to try to buy a blunt. I can believe that he’d walk a mile completely for one of those. I kind of think the Skittles and juice were just there so he didn’t walk away empty-handed if he couldn’t get one.

              Plus, there’s something about being a kid. When you try to buy something a little “shady”, that’s never the only thing you buy. You always try to buy something else, sort of as a cover. I don’t know why anyone would think that makes sense, but a lot of people have told me the same thing.

              At least that’s my experience.

              • Yes you’re correct in that it could have been an innocent trip to the store. It may have been that he just went there for a B&M. The problem is, that he either tweeted about or fb’d ( I can’t remember which) that he used “lean”. (“sizzup?”). You also couple that with the coroner’s report of unusual fatty deposits in his liver and brain condusive to lean users.

                Now a trip to the store with what could be construed as 2/3 of the ingredients for that drink. That information might be what will come out, that’s all and conclusions will be made, correctly or not.

                One other thing I wanted to say on the subject, the state will NEVER bring up George’s prescription to Adderall. The last thing they want presented would be that he was NOT of a right mind. IMO

                • “The problem is, that he either tweeted about or fb’d ( I can’t remember which) that he used “lean”.”

                  Yes, something like eight months before the shooting. Once. And then never mentioned it again.

                  “You also couple that with the coroner’s report of unusual fatty deposits in his liver and brain condusive to lean users.”

                  His liver damage is not conducive to lean users, per se. They’re similar to acetaminophen overdose, though. Which SOME DXM mixtures, such at Theraflu or Nyquil contain.

                  The problem is, you can die from liver failure from just ONE overdose of acetaminophen. The number one cause of sudden liver failure is exactly that (in fact, acetaminophen is the number-one drug people overdose on in the United States). So, he could have permanently damaged his liver by abusing Theraflu just once. Or even just a few times. There’s no evidence that he was a chronic user. And even if he WAS, I really doubt that lean users mix lean with each and every soft drink they ever buy, don’t you?

                  As far as his brain goes, you are relying on information that is almost 20 years old, and is, at best, highly speculative:

                  “Dextromethorphan has not been shown to cause vacuolization in animals, also known as Olney’s lesions, despite early speculation that it may, due to similarities with Phencyclidine (PCP).[14] In rats,[15] oral administration of dextromethorphan did not cause vacuolization in laboratory tests.[16] Oral administration of dextromethorphan repeatedly during adolescence, however, has been shown to impair learning in those rats during adulthood.[17] The occurrence of Olney’s lesions in humans, however, has not been proven or disproven. William E. White, author of the DXM FAQ, has compiled informal research from correspondence with dextromethorphan users suggesting that heavy abuse may result in various deficits corresponding to the brain areas affected by Olney’s lesions; these include loss of episodic memory, decline in ability to learn, abnormalities in some aspects of visual processing, and deficits of abstract language comprehension.[18]”

                  Which you could have seen for yourself, simply by going to:


                  “Now a trip to the store with what could be construed as 2/3 of the ingredients for that drink.”

                  Considering that the Skittles are not really essential at all, and we have no evidence that ANYONE ever combined Skittles AND watermelon juice before the shooting, it’s really more like 1/2 of the ingredients. And that 1/2 is basically a soft drink. ANY soft drink. He could have had a bottle of root beer, and a Snickers bar, and it would be the same thing.

                  • Hammerhead, you are correct about the reference to liver damage caused by paracetamol (sorry that is an easier name than the other one). Overuse of paracetamol causes liver damage and if one has a fatty liver (yes I have a fatty liver so I can talk to this from that angle. ) one of the quesions asked is about the use of drugs that contain paracetamol.

                    Your observations are spot on regarding the subject and especially the fact that paracetamol is contained in various cough medicines.

          • Speaking of some ‘creepy white man’, when will DeeDee’s (and/or Trayvon’s) profiling of Zimmerman be investigated? Rhetorical question, I fear.

          • Jello “weed” might seem innocuous but the truth is that it can affect different people in different ways. For some it can be almost deadly.

            Note: I have never ever used the stuff, but that does not mean I have not known people who have used the stuff.

            Some of the people that have come my way and have been users have ended up with having mental illness of one sort or another. Some of those have ended up paranoid, but they could have been using other substances. In one case a girl almost died as a result of her experience.

            I think that it is the whole picture that we want to see, and so far we have a partial picture. This story is not about the merits of smoking weed, but it is about possible impact of weed plus other substances. In this case the other substance is Lean…. and the combination over time seems to create an environment for paranoia.

            I point out that the guy in Arizona who had a real hatred for Gabby Giffords used weed, but he also used something else called salvia divornum (I may have that name slightly wrong). The second substance combined with the weed seemed to have sent him over the edge.

            However, weed remains not as bad as some of the other substances that are presently available.

            • Yeah, but the “combination” is the key. If marijuana is used along with “lean”, then apparently it has a bad effect. And there are a lot of idiots out there who soak marijuana in other stuff (incl. embalming fluid!), which totally changes the chemistry. But I’m just talking about plain old marijuana, purely by itself, with nothing else, not even alcohol. Of course some is a little “stronger” than other. But when used by itself, I’ve yet to see anyone have serious problems. Now do some of them like it so much that they want to get high more often than they should?… yep. But that’s an addiction (psychological, not physical) problem… and it’s rare. And I’ve seen a few people get a little “paranoid” while high, but NOT in an aggressive way. Definitely NOT, “This guy is looking at me, I’m gonna pound his face!” NOT that way at all. More like a little, “This guy is looking at me. Why is he doing that? I’m a nice person, why would he look at me that way? I need to hurry up and get home before this guy starts messing with me. I don’t want no trouble.”

              • except that even with plain old marijuana there are cases, and I know of one, where it can be extremely harmful…. as far as I am aware in the particular case there was nothing laced. The girl had an extremely bad reaction and ended up in hospital…. water under the bridge.

                Also, I know several people who have had a mental problem that was associated with their marijuana use. They admitted that this is where the problem started into a mental breakdown.
                It is simply not as harmless as some seem to think!!

                That being said, I do think that the situation is far worse when there are people who lace it with something or they experiment with the other things. The addiction for getting high is also probably not as rare as you think.

                It has to be stated that there are addictions to more than weed and that some people simply have addictive personalities. The addiction does not have to be to weed to be a problem, it can be to any number of other things… including being addicted to purchasing yarn!!! 🙂 ROFL

  21. On the anniversary of the shooting, Robert Jr., did an interview and two things jumped out at me:

    1) The family has full faith in the defense and George is an active member of the team.
    JR.: “George is recovering. He’s better. He obviously has an impending legal matter before him that’s very important. But he’s a participant in his defense, which encourages our parents. And we have full faith in his representation and we’re very happy that he’s been so active in it.”

    The second point – Jello listen up – GZ waited to be connected during his call.
    2) JR.: “Yeah. I don’t want to get overly evidentiary, just out of respect to the sanctity of the judicial process that’s going to start, but keep in mind, now, there is some unawareness, it seems, that George was calling a non-emergency number. And he had been waiting to be connected to a person to take that call. It’s not always the same as when you call 911 and someone answers and says what’s your emergency?”

    • Cool, thanks! Just by using common sense, it seemed that George MUST have been wrong in his walkthrough when he said he was already talking to the dispatcher while parked at the Clubhouse. It just seemed that he HAD to be wrong about that. And George himself seemed to realize it, at least at times. Because in one or two of his statements, he had mentioned being on hold. But I hadn’t heard anyone else mention that…. so it’s really cool that Bobby said it too.

      (What made to point ME to that? You remembered me being a bit concerned about it, eh? 😉 )

      • You and I had a conversation about it. I wondered if Bobby read it. You may recall, we were talking about what number was used and I think Diwataman corrected me on the number I said George called.

        I had called the Sanford Police to see if Det. Serino was still with them and I shared about waiting to be put through to the right department.

        • I’ve talked about it a few times I think, but yeah, now that you bring up the phonecall about Serino… I remember when we were talking about the problem with the walkthrough. And definitely, it would be great if Bobby made that comment because he had seen us talking about it. Just the thought that we might be helping is some little way is amazing, eh? And even when we’re not doing anything tangible, I think all of us saying good things about, just sticking up George and his family, day in day out, has to be making things a little less difficult for them… I sure hope so, anyway.

          • I feel the same way. It was only about a week or so after our conversation he mentioned it in the interview. It’s likely a coincidence but either way it does solve the matter. GZ did wait to be connected and that can and will account for where he was when he actually connected to Sean.

            • Be honest it crossed my mind, cause I was the first to mention that there were no audios of Trayvon’s voice. Then a week or so later, defense requested audio of his voice. Coincidence? Probably, but it does stay in your mind that maybe, just maybe that my comment gave them an idea of what else to put on the list. Not patting myself on the back just adding to jello’s comment how our discussion may help defense if they are reading us. I think it was coincidence tho because of the cries for help on the NEN witness call and witness testimony that it was cries of a little boy. We all know what GZ sounds like cause we have heard him speak, but we have yet to hear what Trayvon at 17 sounds like. Regardless, those cries for help DID NOT sound to me like from a young kid. It sounded to me like an adult person. But no one is asking me … sooo …

  22. Courtesy of Chip Bennett, here are the hurdles the state must prove in this case when charging 2nd degree moider.

    To get there, you must:

    1. First, disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense.
    2. Second, prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman killed Martin, by an act imminently dangerous to another, and evincing a depraved disregard for human life

    (If you fail to clear this hurdle, beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge will instruct the jury to acquit Zimmerman.)

    To get past the self-defense hurdle, you must, beyond a reasonable doubt:

    1. Prove that Zimmerman was doing something otherwise unlawful at the time of the incident, or
    2. Prove that Zimmerman did not act to prevent a forcible felony, or did not have reasonable fear of imminent risk of great bodily harm or death, or
    3. Prove that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, that Martin did not escalate the physical aggression, and that Zimmerman did not cease aggression and clearly indicate a desire to end the altercation

    Once you’ve cleared the self-defense hurdle, you must, beyond a reasonable doubt:

    1. Prove that Zimmerman killed Martin (done: Zimmerman admits the act)
    2. Prove that Zimmerman committed an act imminently dangerous to another (done: gun shot)
    3. Prove that Zimmerman acted with a depraved disregard for human life

    Can you, the State, or anyone else clear even one of these stated hurdles?

  23. I think the call time is posted he called at 7:09 but was connected at 7:11 or something like that. So yes he was on hold 1st. I think the call logs shows the call in time and the ?? Time

  24. Pingback: GZ Case: Blogs, Vlogs, Forums, Twitter etc. «

  25. Questions:

    Is there a PM feature here?

    Can we add a brief bio of ourselves anywhere on the site?

    For the record, I am getting used to this place and like it a lot.

    You have done an exceptional job, DMan, and I truly hope you can continue to keep this active.

      • For fear of attracting them I don’t want to mention names, but have you noticed who hasn’t posted? Or is Diwataman doing serious ninja moves behind the scene and keeping them at bay?

        I get the distinct impression a whole lot of moderation isn’t needed. That would be wonderful!

        • I wonder why there are so few posts at Random Topics. This appears to be our new home and only hope DMan keeps it open for us. I have not seen any trolls either or even anyone with bad manners. Conversation is fluid.

          • I have to take a look at Random Topics. I recall Rumpole posted mostly about what other’s sympathetic to the State’s case had to say. I’m more interested in the discovery and what it tells and doesn’t tell us.

            I largely ignore the antagonists.

            • Random Topics is a message board or “forum” vs. this place, CTH and the Manor, which are blogs that allow comments to each blog entry. They are very different formats, each with pluses and minuses (based on my observations). I’m more used to the message board format than the blog comment format and I think it’s easier to navigate. The drawback of that format, however, is the lack of focus. A blog entry/comment format like this one, CTH and the Manor, there’s a focus (the blog entry everyone is commenting on). The unique thing about the GZ Open Thread at CTH and now to some extent the last few days here at Diwataman’s blog, is there’s no particular focus, but people come up with things to talk about anyway. It’s “free form” on the open threads and somehow, it has worked. All people really need to do at Random Topics is what they’re doing here and what they did in the CTH GZ Open Thread, but I think because the message board format is so different and seemingly “unfocused” compared to the blog format, people are having some difficulty figuring out where to post and what to post about. That’s my 2 cents. I won’t wait for change, lol. 🙂

                • I find this format a problem when I want to see only comments made since I last checked in — and not just responses to my comments, but all comments. That’s the thing I find cumbersome about this format, plus the whole skinny columns thing. I’d like to be able to reply to someone starting at the left-hand margin but there’s no way to do that.

                  • “I find this format a problem when I want to see only comments made since I last checked in”

                    The TH was also like that. Right?

                    • Yep, as well as the Manor. I assume all WordPress blogs, and perhaps other types of blogs as well. They weren’t really set up for hundreds of comments on a single blog entry, I don’t think.

                    • I subscribe to comments and receive ALL posts in email. I can reply from the email account if I choose without having to go the site and wade through all of the posts. I delete as I go.
                      If I later decide I no longer want to see comments, I can stop it at anytime in my WP account. That feature is found at the end of each email. Here it is:

                      Want less email? Modify your Subscription Options.

                      I do that at Stately Manor when Mike lets the conversation get out of hand as happened with Update 22. It became ridiculous.

                      If you use that feature, I know some tips that will help you. Let me know.

                      We are blessed here and are self organizing. We all stay focused and most of us are of like minds. So far, everyone is respectful of each other. We are actually easier to follow than the CTH thread was and no one is intimidated by anyone else. No bullies or know it all’s.

                      I only hope it stays this way,

                  • I get what you’re saying and here’s what I do. First I read the post. Then I find a message of which to reply. While posting a reply I check the notify box. Then I get the comments via e-mail. While perusing my e-mail, if I see one of which I’d like to reply, I’ll skip over it to see if someone replied first that would say the same the thing that would have said. When I finish reading all my e-mails, many times over a hundred, I’ll sometimes scan the post to see if there was anything I missed.

                    Hope this helps.

                    • I do not know what DMan has planned but we are getting to the point at which we might need UPDATE #2. This thread is getting lengthy and could continue forever.

        • Hi Nettles – Most of us know each other at this point. We all believe George is innocent because he passed the lie detector. There is NO witness against him at this point. I think all the rabid Trayvonites have “given up” (I hope). Perhaps D-man could start a “weekly” post for us – for his review – by “our group” – for our scaled back efforts. He could call it, “Weekly Summary of Events”.

        • I had one turn up at my joint :)…. the post was trashed. I am a one man/woman band and I am not allowing them to post.

          Kudos to Dman if he is keeping them at bay.

      • Political correctness is the surest way to stifle honest debate. When one is forced to walk on egg shells so to speak, and to live with the fear of being removed from your community of friends, whether you agree with them or not, most debate becomes moot and dishonest and all but a waste of time. Do you by any chance know anything about where GBishop may have gone? She/he disappeared from the CTH almost at the same time as me. GBishop’s last post talked about having a black student claim offense at s/he using the term negrita. The students who were first generation from Africa found the protest less than intelligent and disingenious. I had much appreciation and respect for GBishop and hope that they reappear here.

        • To EVERYONE: I am replying to an old comment, but my name was mentioned so I am posting. Yes, I abruptly stopped posting, for important reasons. Thanks for asking about me. I will not be posting again. But I’ve seen some posts asking about me, and wanted to say thanks. All your thoughts and discussions on these blogs are a monument to the greatness of the American spirit!

          TO MINPIN, you said yesterday, 05/11/2013, that what you have to say does not change by where you are! Very nicely said: That is intellectual honesty!

          You asked that person a question, to which the answer is yes, it was him. He peaches a lot. See how he told you that he thought you stopped picking fights? He thought he’d gotten big brother to straighten you out on that. The technical issues are to make it all about him, btw.

          Your contributions have value, Minpin, and your freedom to say what you think is inspiring

          Quote from Christopher Hitchens lecture: “Its not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard, but its the right of everyone in the audience to listen and hear; and everytime you silence somebody, you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something. In other words, your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved in all these cases as is the right of the other to voice his or her view.”

          Minpin, your views come from an independant free thinking mind, which will no doubt be persecuted by conformists who present themselves for duty, at various blogs, to help get posters like you under control.

          Bloggers may think the conformist cares about their blog, but they are actually lowering the IQ level of their blog, by enforcing the same PC PROG rules, they hate, to please the “offended” victims of free thought!

          You also have a right to intelligent conversation, Minpin, so don’t sell yourself short to belong anywhere!

          • OMG gbishop, you cannot know how surprised I was to see a poster listed as gbishop here. I’ve long hoped that everything has been OK with you, and that nothing bad happened to cause you to abruptly stop posting. I am thankful that all seems to be well with you.

            Thank you gbishop. Thank you. I’ve missed you, your inspiration, your kindness, and mostly your devotion to seeing George through this horrid time. I know you are still praying for him and his family, and following the travesty that is happening closely. Not everyone has to be vocal in doing so. I understand why you have gone silent on the blogs, but thank you so much for letting me and everyone know you are OK. As to the other things, yes I had already figured them out.

            Stay well and God Bless you and yours. I give Dman or Nettles permission to give you my email address if you so chose.

  26. The timing of W8’s lie being exposed couldn’t have been any better. Right before the family and W8 has to swear to tell the truth in their depositions.

  27. pinecone (minpin) says:
    March 17, 2013 at 11:15 pm

    Didn’t Crump have a hissy fit because tests were done on TM but not on GZ the night of the incident?

    You probably know this but I believe it would have been illegal to drug test George that night unless they had probable cause to believe he was under the influence.

    I think that would be a violation of his civil rights.

    As we all know, Crump has limited knowledge of Florida criminal law, but heck, most of the media legal analysts are just as clueless as he is.

    • I remember the discussion way back then that the SPD could not drug test GZ unless he had been arrested and charged with something. It is questionable just how much education Crump received in law school, but his screeching about drug testing GZ was much more about pushing his false narrative than it was about any legalities. Whatever Crump may have learned in law school about laws, it has been his goal to flout, or was that float, those pesky things that are only for other people. I’m convinced that that is why he speaks in ebonics.

    • jordan- I noticed your comment about the comments getting out of hand at Mike McDaniels on update 22. I’ve been reading Mike’s Zimmerman posts from the beginning and I know that in the past Sling Bucket, or whatever her name is, also did the same on most of the other updates. There were a few others that posted similar comments and they have gone for quite awhile. I wonder if Sling and the others are one and the same. At one time Mike did in fact delete most of her posts, as he tried but was unsuccessful to have an honest debate with her. She is kinda out there to say the least. I think the reason they are remaining on update 22 is because there are some who are likely not familiar with her that are trying to have an honest debate, not understanding that some have no desire for an honest debate. They know what they know and that is the end of it. I too was disappointed to see that taking place there yet again.

      • Once I got her to admit that she didn’t care for the evidence that she thought GZ guilty, period I decided to stop. I think she posts at HLN under a different name, the post almost mirror one another.

      • I comment there as well but I totally ignore that particular person because she really has very little to say and is way off beam with her surmises and comments. It is a waste of my time to read her nonsense.

  28. DMan: You did such a great job in getting this started so quickly that some of us might not be missing the Tree at all. What a smooth transition, at least for me. You are one of a kind.. with a lot of talent.

    You now have your own brood to mind but that seems to natural to you. It helps to have loyal fans and we have such a great group here. So thanks to you AND everyone else here.

  29. great to see so many familiar cyber faces here, thanks to D -man for sharing his knowledge and cyber home.

    Things are moving slowly in the case, I feel anxious about the trial, mostly about voir dire. After Casey Anthony’s trial, when some interviewed jurors apparently didn’t even understand “reasonable doubt, I feel distrustful of the system to pick the juror’s. I understand our Judicial system is the best in the world, it’s the vetting of those that may have an agenda that I am fearful of.

    • I know DMan thinks he’s got his one cake in the bag — where we bet over whether this would go to trial or not. There’s not gonna be an immunity hearing next month, but beyond that, I’m not yet ready to concede ANYTHING. 😉 I still think after the depos on Friday, and this renewed motion re. Crump, and whatever else we may see in the coming days, a trial may NOT be in our immediate future. I still expect another continuance request, and probably a Richardson hearing. A trial? Maybe, maybe not… it all depends on just how scared* the State gets over what’s to come.

      (* Or is that “scare”?)

      • Fortunately I am not an American or I might take up a bet myself. I actually agree with Jello, the wheels are finally starting to fall off the rusty Crump machine….

        Is the tide finally turning?

  30. Where is everyone? I am anxious to see what others have to say about the new motion. Thanks to stevie g for his comments.

    It is time for Nelson to come out of State’s closet and do her damn job. The motion is clear. No appeal should ever be necessary.

    I suppose this will delay some depositions and could also require a continuance. Any thoughts about that?

    Will Wolfinger now be deposed? You can bet he is boiling mad as should be the entire SPD except for those 3 or 4 who pressured Serino.

    Oh, boy.. this should become even more interesting.. maybe even fun.

    Let’s dance.

  31. Anyone know why comments were cut off at the latest TH Zimmerman thread?

    I was waiting for a response about DeeDee’s depo stated to have occurred last Friday.

    It’s not like SD to say something like that unless he is sure but there are no links to it and I cannot find a source to confirm.

    Notice the tie of the last comment:

    That Depo is big news to many of us who are anxious for more info including whether she had an attorney or not.

    Other depos were also scheduled for the same day, including Sybrina and Tracey.. One article said March 15 and another said “mid March.”

    The motion itself seems to “imply” to me that another depo of DeeDee would be required IF Crump were to be deposed.

  32. There is exactly 500 responses to that post. I remember in the past that 500 is max; so there is your answer. If someone were to reply, you won’t see it. This happened to me a few months ago when I wanted to know what happened to a reply of mine.

        • He is wanting to get away from daily moderation of the GZ subject. By cutting off the comments at the end of the day, he is able to control the need for moderation. Otherwise it would remain an open thread, defeating the purpose of eliminating daily threads….or not.

          • Thanx. Makes sense to me. BTW, over at Huff ‘n Puff, there saying the CTH is GONE.

            Soooo…. I sent them today’s diary of events.

          • Yeah, I think you’re right. But I don’t think doing that is simply to lessen the workload of the mods. I think it’s more to keep a handle on exactly which direction the conversation goes. I mean I think there’s things going on behind the scenes that are gonna need to be synced in with this or that from now on. And there may even be some concern that some of us, through our brainstorming ( 😉 ) will figure out some things that aren’t yet ready for primetime (PUBLIC) viewing.

        • Some people (anti-GZ people mostly) seem to think that Witness 18 is helpful to the prosecution. I don’t see it. There were a few things she said LATER that might be, but that was only after she had been thoroughly influenced by the media and Scheme Team. As for the night of the shooting, it’s all in George’s favor. Both her 911 call and her statement. What I find so compelling is how upset she is about the fact that she “couldn’t help the person who was screaming”. Of course immediately following the shooting, she assumes that person was the one who was now dead. Who wouldn’t? But regardless of which one she thought it was, it’s real obvious that she thought those screams WERE of terror, and pleading for help. The fact that it’s now clear that those were George’s screams is very, very important.

          And you know what?… this is a big reason why I can’t decide what type of person Chris Serino is. One minute I think he’s slime, the next I think he’s not so bad and has just been pressured/threatened by others. You listen to the call of Witness 18, and how freaked she is. Her main thing is a feeling of guilty that she couldn’t help the person who was crying for help. So I think what Serino did — assuring her that the person screaming was NOT the one who died — was a real attempt to make this woman feel better. It’s true that, going “by the book”, he probably shouldn’t have told her that. But boy… it most definitely was the DECENT thing to do under the circumstances.

          • Mindless speculation but do you ever wonder what would have happened if George had not waived his right to a speedy trial?

          • Serino, was in a tough position, trying to develop enough disprove GZ, with little evidence of it. His job is to make sure that he got the truth, but with the pressure mounting on all sides and GZ not breaking and confessing, he kicked it the SAO and let them handle it.

            When Chief Lee and Serino went to the press and declared that there was not enough to charge, the pressure go bigger, so he got rid of the case, saying no evidence was not going to work, he work so he wrote a capias full of personal opinion but with little evidence to SAO for them to deal it.

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